Spine, Spline, Whatever...

BakerStBobby2 · Nov-12-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forefrazier

As I thought....Bobby are you having your class this coming Wed. the 18th? If so I will try to get over there that evening and bring my SS-CJBF65XH blank in question with me. That is as long as you don't mind a total newbie showing up

Steve

Dude! Get yer ass to class...Noooobies are always welcome. Next class IS on the 18th.
But, you really don't have to come to the class if you want to get started on this project earlier. I can show you how to spline a stick anytime that I'm at the shop! Just call to make sure I'm there.
Bobby~

BakerStBobby2 · Nov-12-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckeye

Sorry, I'm confused, could you expand your explaination? I having trouble visualizing what you and Comedie are saying. By "power splining" are you implying that the blank is rotating? or Are you saying that you push on the midldle of the blank and it will rotate with the spine on the top or bottom?

Well, yes, the blank is going to rotate while bending it with some pressure. It has to roll to get to the the sweet spot. Now, if we're bending the tip of the rod upwards and the middle of the rod is having pressure applied with the round tool...the bend of the rod is upside-down. So, the TOP of the seat(where the reel will sit) needs to be facing down. I hope that helps a little bit more.
Bobby~
714-726-1697 Maybe I can clarify it better over the phone....

E. Harry · Nov-12-2009, 09:43 AM

There is an N1 to N2 plane and an S1 to S2 plane that run through a blank. When you are spineing a blank the N1 and N2, the two nuetral or soft nodes are 180 degrees apart and the two S1 and S2 stiff nodes are 180 degrees apart. The N1 to N2 plane is 90 degrees from the S1 to S2 plane.
When you are spineing a blank it does not feel that this is the case because the point where the two planes cross is not directly in the center of the blank. When the point that they cross over is not in the center it can make it feel or seem like the stiff and soft nodes can be almost anywhere.
Also when you spine most blanks you will notice that the spine moves depending upon how much force you apply when finding the spine. This is because the spine does not run straight up the blank but actually rotates up the blank.
These are a couple of the reasons why many rod builders and a couple of the major rod manufacturers no longer build on the spine but build on the straightest plane or axis.

One_Leg · Nov-12-2009, 09:50 AM

Maybe we should just call it the Splean in order to prevent further confusion?

Capt. G · Nov-12-2009, 10:24 AM

That was pretty funny. That would have to assume that every blank was built with the same pattern, rolled and taped & baked the same way.
Which is not possible.

There is no excuse for not properly building a rod on spline. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Harry

There is an N1 to N2 plane and an S1 to S2 plane that run through a blank. When you are spineing a blank the N1 and N2, the two nuetral or soft nodes are 180 degrees apart and the two S1 and S2 stiff nodes are 180 degrees apart. The N1 to N2 plane is 90 degrees from the S1 to S2 plane.
When you are spineing a blank it does not feel that this is the case because the point where the two planes cross is not directly in the center of the blank. When the point that they cross over is not in the center it can make it feel or seem like the stiff and soft nodes can be almost anywhere.
Also when you spine most blanks you will notice that the spine moves depending upon how much force you apply when finding the spine. This is because the spine does not run straight up the blank but actually rotates up the blank.
These are a couple of the reasons why many rod builders and a couple of the major rod manufacturers no longer build on the spine but build on the straightest plane or axis.

**MR Limpet** · Nov-12-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. G

That was pretty funny. That would have to assume that every blank was built with the same pattern, rolled and taped & baked the same way.
Which is not possible.

There is no excuse for not properly building a rod on spline. Period.

E. Harry · Nov-12-2009, 11:46 AM

Capt. G
I am sorry but you are incorrect on both counts.
None of the assumptions you point out are made. The principals are true for all blanks. In fact, they are also true for a pipe.
Building on the spine is a matter of opinion. I think a case can be made for either building on the spine or on the straightest axis. However, it is my opinion that a stronger case can be made for building on the straightest axis.

buckeye · Nov-12-2009, 02:01 PM

Thanks, I think I have it now. I think it was the reference to "power splining" that threw me.

DocSki · Nov-12-2009, 04:16 PM

this issue like so many others in rod building is mostly personal prefference. My suggestion is to read everything, listen to everything, watch everything and then experiment. find something that works for YOU and then do it because you choose to do it that way. If it works then repeat it until it no longer does what you want the back to the drawing board and try something else. I think the thing many rod builders do is stop doing something that works because someone says there is a better way and then finds out it causes problems in other areas for him. I guess that is why always say "if it aint broke then dont fix it' Ok back to my cave I go.

E. Harry · Nov-12-2009, 04:22 PM

For those who strongly believe in mounting their guides on the spine here is something that you may want to try.
When the S1 to S2 and/or the N1 to N2 do not cross in the center of the blank, which is more often than not the case, the two stiff planes and/or the two soft planes, the spine, can appear to be other than 180 degrees apart and the N1 to N2 other than 90 degrees from the S1 to S2. They can actually seem to be anywhere relative to each other. For example, if the two cross well off of the center the S1 and S2 or the N1 and N2 can seem to be right next to each other or just a few degrees apart.
For this reason and the fact that the spine appears to move on many blanks depending upon the amouint of force that is applied when finding the spine there is a way of finding the spine that I think is probably a better method than the different static methods that are used. At least I think that it better represents how the rod will react in actual use.
If the butt of the rod is firmly locked down and the tip of the rod is deflected and then released the blank will oscillate. If you watch the tip of the blank it will, after a few oscillations, tend to oscillate forming an ellipse. When the tip forms an ellipse it is not oscillating on the spine. If as the tip oscillates it forms an ellipse, rotate the blank a few degrees and repeat the proceedure until when the tip is deflected and released it oscillates straight up and down. When the tip of the blank oscillates straight up and down it is oscillating on the plane of the spine or the N1 to N2 plane.
It has been my experience that there will usually be a difference between the spine found dynamically like this and the spine found using a static method. The difference may not be large but there usually will be a difference.

Comedie · Nov-12-2009, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt. G

There is no excuse for not properly building a rod on spline. Period.

I agree. To me, building a custom rod is about optimizing components. The spine is a usually easy to find physical anomoly in the blank construction that affects how the blank bends. To ignore that is to close your eyes. To repeat,,,, it affects how the rod bends!

But there's lotsa excuses why it isn't done by some. Mostly two excuses tho:
It takes more time, so it takes a little more thought and costs mass producers more
Membership in the Cult of the Spineless

There are arguments for and one against building on spine. The straightest axis bit doesn't convince. Leave a rod in a pickup shell on a hot day and the straightest axis can change.
Being pragmatic tho, the worst outcome of building on the spine is that you wasted an entire minute of time. In the best outcome you built a better rod with a little more craftsmenship involved. Heck, I'll spend that minute on doing it.

,,,,, my rod has a spine, and so do I

Comedie · Nov-12-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BakerStBobby2

Dude! Get yer ass to class...Noooobies are always welcome. Next class IS on the 18th.
But, you really don't have to come to the class if you want to get started on this project earlier. I can show you how to spline a stick anytime that I'm at the shop! Just call to make sure I'm there.
Bobby~

Heck Bobby, I know how to find the spine. Wish I lived closer so I could visit you and find out how to Power spine tho. Now does that require bobblehead Power Rangers to be on the table?