Bio: So.Cal. native, raised in da "Valley". Stomping grounds were Marina Del Rey, Hermosa, Redondo, & sometimes Long Beach.
Posts: 807
Fixing epoxy finish woes
A lot of guys & gals seem to have problems with their finish work especially when first starting out and or from time to time trying to apply is a bit heavy (especially on tiger wraps). I'm one of those impatient SOB's
that will sometimes get a little "heavy handed" trying to get a thicker coat rather than doing the smart thing and just applying another coat. Get too heavy handed and not letting the excess drip off will always result in a bumpy or wavy uneven instead of flat even finish.
When that happens you CAN fix it! Let it set-up hard & not tacky then with a sanding block and some 120grit sand the "high spots" down level
with the rest. Finish up with a much finer grit paper to remove the scratches left by the course paper. A power wrapper makes the job quicker but you can easily do it by hand too. Then a final light coat completes the job.
For those who have never seen this process I've included pix.
Not sure if you can see the wavyness in the top pic but it's there.
the second pic is sanding completed. Notice the "haze" across the entire wrap. The light scratches are just light enough not to show after the final light finish coat is applied.
Third pic is final coat applied. Nice & clear again!
Speaking as one who is new to epoxy thread finish (always used varnish before) I don't think it is a matter of new guys having actual problems as much as thinking they are going to have problems. Reading the forums can get you paranoid. Matters are much worse when it comes to CP. I'm simply afraid to try it!
And you know why? Because I'm not sure I know how to safely remove a messed up job. Again the forums have convinced me a light scratch on high-end graphite blank will result in an untimely failure down the road. Given all the costs associated with catching that "big one" I'm not going to take risks just to preserve color or to be able to buy thread at a sewing store.
So give me the low down here Ray. Tell me it isn’t any big deal and a little heat and a razor blade is all it takes. Tell me I'd have to be a fool and use a cutting torch, grinder, and sawzall to remove a wrap to make a blank fail while fishing.
For you guys that have been at it for a while maybe it is all fun. But for me, by the time I spend 100-200+ bucks between blank, guides, handle, grips, thread, finish, etc..... and then spend a couple weekends of my precious time off putting it all together...and now it is time to consider that first butt wrap and CP..... I have a lot of time and money (for me) involved. I get chicken shit plain and simple and all because I feel like I'm going to be facked if that butt wrap with CP and epoxy need to be cut off.
So kick me in the butt Ray and tell me it isn’t rocket science. It helps more than you know. And please suggest ways to insure it goes right and a butt wrap a beginner is likely to have success with. The tiger wrap looks easy to start with. A diamond wrap looks like I'd learn more about the process. Actually I'd like to do a tartan. I just get hung up on things like offset spacing and layout and need better instructions than what I find online (so far). What I really need is someone to show me once and then what I read would fall into place. Really it is the stupid shit like do I use a thread bobbin and spin the blank with the other hand? I darn sure don’t see how I make it work with a phone book and handle several threads at once.
Gee, I'm even finding it hard to pick colors for my guide wraps and make them all look nicely proportioned. I'm feeling like I need an art class on how to use a color wheel and some gay friends It doesn’t help that my idea of interior design is an artful arrangement of empty imported beer bottles amidst a background of dirty socks and pizza boxes.
It's not rocket science, but there's a relatively easy way to learn how to do this - including using CP!
1) Get yourself a piece of blank from a busted stick. Something about six inches long.
2) Wrap a guide on this peice of rod, Use only one color and one size of thread.
3) Coat the wraps with one coat of the CP of your choice. Let it dry 24hrs.
4) Mix your epoxy finish of choice. Really doesn;t matter what brand, full or lite, etc.
5) Apply your finish any way you like. Thick or thin, or something in between.
6) Spin it dry for at least six hours, more is better, under temperatiure controlled conditions (not less than 70deg F).
Look at it.
Now do it all again without the CP.
Now do it all again using NCP thread, but without the CP. The do it again with NCP thread but WITH CP.
Now do it again using a different brand or strength (i.e., lite or full) of epoxy.
DO ALL THIS MESSING ABOUT BEFORE YOU TRY ANYTHING ON AN ACTUAL ROD.
Now you will know what your finish work will look like on an actual rod, and the confusion will be gone, and so will "beeing afraid to try it" - because you'll teach yourself what works and what doesn't for you, and what you like and don't like, and then none of the opinions of all the other folks - experts, so-called experts, self-styled experts, and self-annointed experts - will have you wondering what to do. The whole exercise will take about a week of evenings and you will have a wealth of information that no one can tell you. After that, if something gets messed up, you'll probably know what happened instantly.
Bio: So.Cal. native, raised in da "Valley". Stomping grounds were Marina Del Rey, Hermosa, Redondo, & sometimes Long Beach.
Posts: 807
Russell,
You would really have to mess up badly to damage any blank even a high-end one.
Your definately not likely to cut into one with a razor blade although you could scratch one with the very corner of the blade and even then you not likely to get into the fibers just the finish. I hope that will ease your mind some in that regard.
Fresh epoxy is rather soft for a couple of days and is easily removed. It will peel right off with little effort especially if there is CP under it. If your removing a guide just cut along the top of the foot a little bit & then peel the thread & epoxy off. You would be suprised how easy it will be.
Russ is 100% about trying out things on a piece of scrap. It only takes a minute cost nothing.
Another thing I tell anyone who has not done it is to find a couple cheap rods and strip them down to the blank as if they are going to rebuild it from the ground up.
Only destroy the parts unless you have to in order to get them off. Heat gun or better yet boiling water will loosen glue bonds (especially on old poorly built rods) or if not cut the grips & seat off. Do that to a couple of rods will teach one a LOT about construction methods and give one much confidence.
Do NOT get tripped out over off-set taper lay-out! Unless you doing a very long closed wrap on a blank with a very sharp taper it's a waste of time and effort.
If you mess up or change your mind mid way or even after a cross-wrap is done it come right off without leaving a mark. I'm sure you wouldnt epoxy it if you were not happy with it and even if you did and forgot CP or for what ever reason not happy it still come off about as easy or easier in some cases than it went on. Bet on it!
The book by Clemens "Advance Custom Rod Building" show you all about Tartan wraps and explains how the effect is acheived by using both regular and NCP thread and no CP!
I'm not as bad as I let on and the first rod came out fine. Hard to go wrong with metallic gold, black, and scarlet. Mostly I'm after a better fishing machine and towards that end I have learned a lot from you guys. I thought I didn't care about looks but I admit to a serious case of envy when I see what some of you turn out. Heck I'd wager Billy's work would put many a long term pro to shame. The thought of putting that much time and effort into something and having to cut that many threads off is enough to give me a heart attack. I'll gladly humble myself and appear the complete fool on line to avoid that fate. Besides, I thought you could use a good laugh Ray
I should get the Clemens book but honestly I haven't gotten that much out of the recommended book and magazine subscription I already bought. Something just isn't clicking in the words I'm reading and I have the strong suspicion that a few hours with the right person would make a world of difference. I have not been able to make that happen so far. It is nothing more than most all of you had to go through in the past and honestly much less likely. The Internet is helpful and something you guys didn't have in the past. I need to decide how dedicated I am as I was just looking for a cheaper way to get some better rods but now I see so much more that can be done.
I'm debating if it is worth it to go to the convention in High Point.
Russell,
Something I always suggest is on your first couple of rods keep it simple. Simple handle layout, simple guide wraps, simple butt wraps if you choose. Nothing overly intricate. Once you build a couple and understand the basics of laying out the rod, gluing, wrapping and applying finish, then certainly get more creative and experiment. It's easy to get flustered when your trying to learn everything at the same time. It does help to watch someone do it vs. books and internet. Not saying that the books, videos, internet sites, etc. aren't valuable (because I think they are) but watching someone does help tremendously. You can always ask all the questions you want here, nobody will mind. Heck, I think that's what a big part of this site is for. I've been the rod show once when it was in Charlotte and had a great time. I'd actually like to go again in High Point but conflicts always keep me from going. You can also check your local shops and see if they build rods and maybe do classes or seminars. Randy.
Bio: So.Cal. native, raised in da "Valley". Stomping grounds were Marina Del Rey, Hermosa, Redondo, & sometimes Long Beach.
Posts: 807
I did take ya a bit more seriously Russell and got not even a chuckle. Mostly cuz I've been there and your right. Back in the day most guys who built rod and were any good kept their tips & secrets to themselves. All I had were the Clemens books and a couple tackle shop owners who would pass me a tidbit now & again. Funny thing though that was long after RodCrafters was rolling and I never got wind of them unfortunately.
Once you do have to cut off a 12hr butt wrap or 20hr weave one gets over the shock rather quickly. If one didn't the looney farm would be far more crowded!
Fancy & complex thread work is not for everyone for sure.
Okay guys, you asked for it and I do have many questions and need plenty of help. And ya, the idea of cutting off 20 hours of work is scary. I do question if I am cut out for this. Fine detail and a good eye aren't my strong suits. But I ain't no quitter and I make sure all my hobbies push my comfort zone.
I'm going to try and post a pic. I can't tell if it will work but I'll carry on as if it did.
Say I want to do my guides like the posted pic. I want the small guides to look in proportion to the bigger ones and the wraps to start and end with the same color (i.e. I want it to look right). I count 14 bands of black and 13 bands of purple to the center of the wrap. Now how do I go about laying things out and marking my blank? Would you start at the tip and make each band wider, but the same total number, as you worked down? Or would you drop a pair of bands as your guides got smaller? Do you count the number of revolutions or do you use a ruler? I used to use a scribe to mark a blank, is that still okay? If not what do you use to mark a black blank with real fine layout marks?
I'm sure some guys can just eyeball things but I'm not one. I need a ruler to draw a straight line and a level to hang a picture. Randy, simple is fine but it is boring and I want more from myself. Russ, I do have two brands of CP, chromaseal and color lock2. I have regular gudebrod and madeira (don't care for NCP). I have rebuilt an old rod. Only one brand finish though, threadmaster. I was advised it stood up well to the sun down here, was very clear, and the lite version offered enough pot life in our 90+ degree environment. I figure I will learn its quirks before moving on and they seem to be a tendency to leave voids, like a fisheye, if you wait too long between coats.
Damn Ray, not even a chuckle on the interior decorating with empty beer bottles and dirty socks? Well I have been told my humor is very dry....which I take as a nice way to say it sucks. I know there have to be several builders where I am. I keep dropping hints but no bites. When I flat out ask I get excuses and I do think it is a money/trade secret thing. But hey, I'll find a way to make things work. What I have done so far looks better and performs better than what I can buy in a store at any sane price. So I am coming along. It is just taking longer to build something than it should and I am tripping out on shit that should be easy. On the other hand maybe the wrap I posted is a bitch and I shouldn't be so hard on myself for not knowing how to make it right first time out the door? Dang sure didn't do nothing like that with my dad back in the 60's.
Bio: So.Cal. native, raised in da "Valley". Stomping grounds were Marina Del Rey, Hermosa, Redondo, & sometimes Long Beach.
Posts: 807
The black/purple guide wrap is similar to what we call a "faded" wrap. Notice how the purple bands get thicker as they mover to the center and the black is just the opposite? Each purple gets bigger by one and each black gets smaller by one. (I'm only guessing here by what I see, numbers could be different)
Not sure of the exact ratio but it does not matter unless you wish to exactly duplicate the wrap with exact number and size of threads.
All the wraps will start & end with black and the progression would be the same as well. To keep the wrap proportioned on the smaller guides you cant use the same revolutions. If you do that every wrap would be the same length and look funky so the only thing to do is eliminate revolutions and thus either make the bands narrower by proportion or elimninate a band or two all together. I would do the former.
You can duplicate the exact "look" by thinking of the width of the bands as a percentage of the total distance of the guide feet tip to tip. The bands get either smaller or larger depending on guide size. How many wraps of the size thread you widh to use will be required to fill the space indicated by the percentage?
You can mark the blank with a scribe if you wish as it will only scratch the finish but I try & avoid that and use a white china marker. Problem with the marker is getting nice thin marks.
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