Need Help Please Thread Master

MKUHN138 · Oct-21-2009, 02:34 PM

I gave threadmaster a shot a couple of months back, with little luck- I ended up switching back to FC. I really like the clarity of the finish, and the fact that there are really no bubbles at all. The problem I have been having is that the first several coats lay down with a lot of fisheyes. I just decided to give it a shot again on a rod I'm building, and put a couple of coats over the base wrap of a tiger and the stripper guide. The tiger had 3 coats of CP - the first coat of finish was horrible - fisheyes everywhere; second a little bette; and third no fisheyes. Usually with FC I get a few fisheyes on the first coat, and the rest are smooth as can be.

I've also noticed that if I wipe the wrap with DNA, acetone, or let the last coat sit more than 10-12 hours, the next coat goes on really shitty.

Just as an FYI - I apply my finish a bit different than I guess what is "conventional." I apply it in very thin - multiple layers, and brush it on parallel to the length of the rod. With FC I've been getting super smooth and glassy finish this way.

Is there any advice any of you guys can give me to help with TM? I really want it to work, but am already ready to quit again...

flatliner · Oct-21-2009, 03:14 PM

Its the best finish I have ever used. If you are getting so many fish eyes, are you hitting it with a torch after applied to knock them out? Thats what I do. I apply the finish, let it set a minute and then his it with flame and all of the bubbles release. Hands down, its the best finish I have ever used. If you are getting a large amount of fisheyes, you are contaminated.

Kevin

kaimikai · Oct-21-2009, 03:21 PM

i use tm hi-build exclusively and have had no problems at all...i will never go back to fc or any other ....the tm lite is not for me though...it takes a long time to set up...i like the hi build and i apply it in an unconventional way...i use da finger...

Russ57 · Oct-21-2009, 03:49 PM

Damn Matt, I thought it was me. I'm new to epoxy finish as it has been 40+ years since I built rods. I choose TM lite because it is very hot here and wanted the extra pot life, hate thick blobs of epoxy, and heard it didn't yellow as much.

Most of the wraps turned out fine. But I had what I thought were fisheyes on one wrap. Due to reasons beyond my control I had to rush and leave so I just wiped that wrap off with DNA. After returning the thread color was still changed so I knew some finish had soaked in and the fisheys were gone. Reapplied the finish the next day and fisheyes again. Dang! So I wet sanded with 1200 grit and there were no low spots. Hmmm, okay, washed it down with soap and water, dried and wiped with DNA, reapplied finish and darn fisheyes came back.

Now I'm wondering. My job was a rewrap of an old rod which had a lot of dings in the old finish on the blank. I also noticed that after finishing I could easily see where I had pulled the tag ends under at the end of the wraps. I'm starting to think I wrapped too tight and there were dings under that part of the wrap.

It is on gold metallic part only. It looks like you have a clear coat of laquer on a nice polished brass rail but someone hit it twice with a tiny ball pien hammer and the circles just barely overlap. But when I run my finger across it all I feel is smooth finish.

Honestly I don't know WTF the problem is. Just got done putting a blob of TM on with a toothpick and letting it sit. Big old drop right on top and I can still see those fisheyes. It ain't like the finish was repelled. I did wipe with DNA and I am waiting 24 hours between coats of TM lite.

I'm starting to feel like a real idiot.

MKUHN138 · Oct-21-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatliner

Its the best finish I have ever used. If you are getting so many fish eyes, are you hitting it with a torch after applied to knock them out? Thats what I do. I apply the finish, let it set a minute and then his it with flame and all of the bubbles release. Hands down, its the best finish I have ever used. If you are getting a large amount of fisheyes, you are contaminated.

Kevin - I do hit it with the torch super lightly - no need like with FC - the bubbles release themselves pretty good. I think it has to do with the CP - but I could be wrong. This stuff just seems a lot more susceptible to contamination that FC

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaimikai

i use tm hi-build exclusively and have had no problems at all...i will never go back to fc or any other ....the tm lite is not for me though...it takes a long time to set up...i like the hi build and i apply it in an unconventional way...i use da finger...

You use your finger and it goes on smooth? That sounds risky for me...

**SALTYDAWG** · Oct-21-2009, 05:55 PM

Matt fisheyes are from contaminants in something your are using or you're letting it set too long inbetween coats. Try using a different CP, Clean your brush out with alcohol before you start, Make sure you are mixing in a clean container. Lots of things will cause fisheyes, If my shop window is open when my kid warms up his dirt bike, The unburned whatever in the fumes will cause problems. The worst thing I've found is the release agent for carbon fiber molds. If that shit is sprayed anywhere near thread, Blanks or anything else it creates fisheye nightmares
Start a process of elimination, One thing at a time until you find the source

flatliner · Oct-21-2009, 06:38 PM

I had one hell of a contamination problem. I was using american tackle finish and they told me that Threadmaster would be more resistant to contamination. Thats why I switched. Well, when I switched, I had the problem still. I couldn't figure out what it was . I gradually eliminated and replaced process items. When all had been exhausted, I was finally down to the towels I was using. I work in Cardiac surgery and all of my hospitals have rags that are sterile for the Dr's to wipe their hands off. Each surgery has about 4 12x12 towels that they throw away if unused. They are sterile, clean, etc. Well, it turns out that the gasses they sterilize the towels with HATES finish.
Long story short, start switching out the items in your process and you will find the culprit.

Dawg, the dirtbike is throwing oil out if the exhaust and that oil is coating the blanks and wraps.

Kevin

Fuji_Pedler · Oct-21-2009, 08:52 PM

Pssssst Matt... Yer not alone...

I explain it to customers as "hard, crystal clear and REAL quirky". Honestly I've never had good luck with it leveling in thin coats. Pour it on, let it run off the bottom of the wrap till the excess drips off and it'll level like glass.

I found that it doesn't like heat, EXPECIALLY when mixed with Madeira/Chromaseal almost as if the heat sucks the Madeira silicone right through the CP. I've had it bead up over waterslide decals (ALPS ribbons) too, as well as fisheye out of nowhere over clean NCP. When it happens to me, it's after 20+ minutes as I've let it sit still, flipping it every few minutes before putting it in the dryer, and the fisheyes always come up after I've started it rotating and walked off.

I've used every finish under the sun in the same work area, so it's not like I'm singling out TM and applying it in a Pledge factory.

I will tell you this... When you get it right, it's friggen awesome finish. Not something I'd use if I was in a hurry though, because I'm about 50/50 between having it work great and having to do a lot of sanding.

REP · Oct-21-2009, 10:53 PM

We have tried just about everything and have settled on TM products for most of our work.

TM is a very different product than FC, or any of the other rod finish epoxies.

TM was not designed for many multiple coats, although it certainly can be done. TM Lite is how you go to a thinner finish - you do NOT thin TM with ANYTHING. You can heat it, but we have rarely needed to and only under very specific cirumstances - and it's not recommended for TM. We use two full coats of the "full-on" product. We have also used a single coat of the full product with a coat of the Lite product as a finisher. Unless we messed up with an inexact mix or not keeping the room temp up above 70deg, we have never had a problem.

In the interest of full disclosure, we were field testors for TM CP.

TM is more flexible than some finishes and unlike FC the two coats, if applied within 12hrs (but not more than 24hrs) of each other, bond to each other. It's a "softer" surface than FC and most of the others (i.e., less brittle) but extremely clear and smooth.

Not to be argumentative, but I'm going to guess you are using too much (too many coats), waiting too long between coats (because then it won't bond between the coats), not mixing exactly between coats, or you have some other contamination on your threads. We generally use two coats of CP, although on our ribbon wraps we might use more to build up the spaces between the wraps.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

MKUHN138 · Oct-22-2009, 12:15 AM

It seems like maybe my CP could be the culprit, as well as the thin coats. I'm not convinced it is anything else - Like I said I've been getting good results with FC. What CP's are you guys using with it? I have some Chroma seal that IMO is awful - It looks really washed out even after 3 coats. I'm currently using FC CP, and have been happy with the results...

MKUHN138 · Oct-22-2009, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SALTYDAWG

Matt fisheyes are from contaminants in something your are using or you're letting it set too long inbetween coats. Try using a different CP, Clean your brush out with alcohol before you start, Make sure you are mixing in a clean container. Lots of things will cause fisheyes, If my shop window is open when my kid warms up his dirt bike, The unburned whatever in the fumes will cause problems. The worst thing I've found is the release agent for carbon fiber molds. If that shit is sprayed anywhere near thread, Blanks or anything else it creates fisheye nightmares
Start a process of elimination, One thing at a time until you find the source

You should buy your son a new 4 stroke - then you will both be happy.

kaimikai · Oct-22-2009, 10:44 AM

i have experienced a contamination problem awhile back when I first started wrapping poles...I was spraying silicone spray in the work area....BAD !!!!!!!....I went nuts trying to figure out what was going wrong...silicone residue was on everything...when I touched something(anything) in the area,it would go on my fingers and then I would touch the rod or the thread and problems would arise...