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Rod building Thread, Rod in Fishing Related; Bass. trout short range running fish, line touching blank is not a significant problem for either line or rod. longer ...
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Old Oct-15-2009, 12:29 AM   #25
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Bass. trout short range running fish, line touching blank is not a significant problem for either line or rod.
longer range, harder running S/W fish ....... different matter altogether.

Its primarily a heat issue and for the line not the blank.
( not to say that abrasion is not cumulative ........been there done that playing with custom centreline rods )

quality ringed guides are not a problem because the line contact is small and friction factors are low, with line touching the blank however its over a significant length with higher friction factors and heat builds up in the contact area in the blank..........no problem for the line with the fish running, the heat buildup is in the static component from friction not the moving component.

The problem arises when the run stops and the line is in static contact with the blank.
heat transfers from the heat buildup in the blank to the line ( which is now stationary ) the breaking strain of the line reduces with increased temp ( effectively you are annealing the mono or spectra .............both are manufactured work hardened ) ..........snappo.............fish gone.
Many assume this was a result of abrasion..............its not ..........its heat transfer.

Same deal with mono or spectra across an anchor rope under water .
Despite being underwater there is very high heat buildup in the static component ( the anchor rope ) ............it melts.
Anyone experiencing an anchor rope cut by mono or spectra will see a lovely smooth melted edge to the cut anchor rope . Not an abraided edge of individual strands.
Now , if the run stops before the anchor rope parts the line breaks............from heat transfer from the anchor rope into the stationary line in contact with it.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 09:25 AM   #26
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Denis,
That is interesting. I do not doubt that you are correct but anchor rope being melted under cold water is a bit counter intuitive.

Dave,
A carbon fiber rod is not plastic. Plastic or plasticity means that there is a nonlinear relationship between stress and strain. Carbon fiber has a very linear relationship between stress and strain which is what is meant when we say it has a high modulus of elasticity. If you look up Young's modulus and Hook's law on the web you will see what I mean.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 09:42 AM   #27
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Denis,,,,,, along those lines, that's one of the reasons I am insecure with titanium guides. Titanium is a lousy heat conductor. So if the ring heats up, there is no heat sink. Couple that with titanium guides often using smaller mass rings, and you get the idea I'm thinking.

Emory,,,,, yeah there are fibers in there, but it is all stuck together by plastic resins. In the end, rods are just reinforced plastics.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 01:01 PM   #28
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Dave,
I am sorry but you are wrong. Any material that is plastic will make a very poor fishing rod. The amount of resin in a fishing rod, the only material other than the finish that might be referred to as plastic, is actually small. The glass, if glass is used either as the load bearing fibers or as scrim, and the carbon fibers constitute the vast majority of the material in a blank, roughly 90% If the blank acted as a plastic (high strain for small stress) it would be a very poor fishing rod. Because it is a composite does not mean that it is plastic.
I guess you did not look up Young's modulus and Hooke's law. Hooke's law states that for any elastic material there is a very linear relationship between stress and strain. Plasticity by definition means that there is a nonlinear relationship between stress and strain.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 01:04 PM   #29
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Just run a refrigeration coil through the blank and mount a small compressor on your fighting belt, and you're good to go.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 01:21 PM   #30
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Dennis B is correct. A high speed run(espescially from a wahoo) will burn right through an anchor rope. Every captain in the fleet has probably had it happen at some point...But Dennis, you could be wrong, after all you are an ice cream addict...
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Old Oct-15-2009, 02:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by E. Harry View Post
Denis,
That is interesting. I do not doubt that you are correct but anchor rope being melted under cold water is a bit counter intuitive.
Emory, it certainly is counter intuitive, you would think the water would cool everything more than adequately.
the fact is ......... the melting happens.
It shows the heat generation power of a moving object on a static one.

the static anchor rope does not get water to the friction surface & builds up heat
the moving line however is fully exposed to the water as soon as it exits the contact area which is millimetres in length, the exposure time is very short as its moving fast & it contributes friction and incremental heat with little exposure itself.
The anchor line however is incrementally gaining heat in the constant contact area and quickly.

when fishing pelagics at anchor I always rigged a large Dahn Buoy to the anchor rope as soon as anchoring in position, so the anchor could be dumped as soon as a fish looked like it was swimming around the front of the boat............. only personally ever suffered an anchor rope "burnoff" once that way ( Dahn Buoy was rigged the very next day ........He He ).

The intuitive thinking that water should cool everything is what leads many people to think that the effect of the interaction is abrasion not heat.

Same deal with hot runs from fish like mackerel , Wahoo, tuna etc........on light line........... when line failure occurs its usually at the end of a run not during the run, as soon as the line is static on the heated guide ring.
Many anglers think that is the result of a "sticky drag" .........whereas its just momentary drag increase as the drag washers shift between dynamic friction and higher static friction factors at the end of a run as the fish slows & the rod ''nods".........allowing that momentary stall of the spool...........the wrong cause is attributed to the failure from flawed intuitive thinking.
( no drag is immune from this issue, Cal's grease .........whatever....... they reduce the difference between static & dynamic friction factors in the drag system but cannot remove the difference entirely ).

lessons often learnt the hard way.
a) I always wet the line on the reel before commencing fishing & periodically during fishing
b) when fishing pelagics a 'waterboy' with an empty softdrink can full of water is employed to dribble water on the spool during hot runs.
c) dry salty line, from prev use, deep in the spool has much higher friction factor than cleaner wetter line at the top. Salt is slow to re-dissolve, ........the water is a lubricant & a coolant for the line ( not deliberately the guide).

He He...........as an aside
Intuitively, You would not think a piece of fishing line could be passed thru a block of ice without cutting the ice in two.
try draping a piece of line with a decent sinker on each end over an iceblock & be prepared to be amazed.

This little trick can win you beers down the local..........He He.

Icecream is Yummy
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Old Oct-15-2009, 02:40 PM   #32
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Dave,
I am sorry but you are wrong. Any material that is plastic will make a very poor fishing rod. The amount of resin in a fishing rod, the only material other than the finish that might be referred to as plastic, is actually small. The glass, if glass is used either as the load bearing fibers or as scrim, and the carbon fibers constitute the vast majority of the material in a blank, roughly 90% If the blank acted as a plastic (high strain for small stress) it would be a very poor fishing rod. Because it is a composite does not mean that it is plastic.
I guess you did not look up Young's modulus and Hooke's law. Hooke's law states that for any elastic material there is a very linear relationship between stress and strain. Plasticity by definition means that there is a nonlinear relationship between stress and strain.
You know what I meant,,,,, the resin sticks it all together, and it IS heat sensitive. I think most people would equate 'resin' with 'plastic'. Incorrect terminology perhaps, but it is understood.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 06:37 PM   #33
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Denis,
I am going to try your ice experiment.
I have actually seen a number of anchor ropes cut by Salmon on braided line and I always assumed that it was from abrasion. It never occured to me that it would be from the heat generated but your explanation makes a lot of sense and I have no doubt that you are correct.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 07:36 PM   #34
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The Ice trick is pressure related
the pressure on the ice from the line decreases the fusion temp of the water & it melts under the line ( despite still being below zero Deg C )...as soon as the water passes around the line the pressure drops & the water re-freezes............. line starts on top & ends on the bottom with the ice still in one piece.

Physics leads to some quirky stuff.
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Old Oct-15-2009, 08:39 PM   #35
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Denis,
Are you sure you are not pulling my chain? You are saying that the line will cut completely through the ice but the ice will freeze again behind the line so as to not be cut into two seperate pieces----right? Doesn't the rate that the line cuts through the ice, the weight on the line, make a difference? I am going to have to try this.
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Old Oct-16-2009, 07:58 AM   #36
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......The Ice trick is pressure related
the pressure on the ice from the line decreases the fusion temp of the water .......
Ahhhhh... Cold Fusion!
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