Lobster Hoop Nets DFG meeting

[bigeye2k]

New lobster regulations in the works.

STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FISH AND GAME COMMISSION
INITIAL STATEMENT OF REASONS FOR REGULATORY ACTION
(Pre-publication of Notice Statement)
Amend Section 29.80
Title 14, California Code of Regulations
Re: Gear Restrictions
I. Date of Initial Statement of Reasons: July 1, 2009
II. Dates and Locations of Scheduled Hearings:
(a) Notice Hearing: Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Woodland
(b) Discussion Hearing: Date: October 1, 2009
Location: Woodland
(c) Discussion Hearing Date: Date: November 5, 2009
Location: Woodland
(d) Adoption Hearing: Date: December 11, 2009
Location: West Sacramento
III. Description of Regulatory Action:
(a) Statement of Specific Purpose of Regulation Change and Factual Basis for Determining
that Regulation Change is Reasonably Necessary:
29.80 (b) states that spiny lobster may be taken by baited hoop nets. There is currently
no definition of a baited hoop net. For many years a hoop net consisted of two hoops
connected by net meshing (old style). The top hoop was larger then the bottom hoop.
When the hoop net sat on the bottom of the ocean it laid flat. When lobster fed on bait
attached to the hoop net they were free to come and go with nothing keeping them in the
hoop net. When raised to the surface the net meshing stretched out between the hoops
and caught anything that was feeding in the net at the time.
Within the last couple of years there have been several new types of devices developed
being called hoop nets. These newly created devices are becoming more efficient and
are fishing like traps. Section 29.80 (a)(2) prohibits the use of traps to take lobster. These
newly designed hoop nets consist of an upper and lower metal hoop. The bottom hoop is
approximately 3 feet in diameter. The upper hoop is about 1-2 feet in diameter. The two
hoops are separated with 3-4 rigid pieces of metal approximately 6-12 inches in length,
which are connected to both hoops so the upper hoop sits about 6 -12 inches above the
lower hoop. Between the two hoops is mesh netting. When the hoop net sits on the
ocean floor, the top hoop is supported by rigid arms which allow the top hoop to sit above
the lower hoop with mesh netting raised in between the two hoops. A lobster will climb
up the outside of the mesh netting and enter the top of the device. It then climbs into the
net to get to the bait. Depending on the height of the upper hoop, the lobster may or may
not be able to exit the device. When the lobster needs to make a quick escape, such as
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when the device is moved, the lobster swims backwards into the mesh netting and
cannot escape. It is also unclear whether a small lobster, once inside the net, can crawl
out of the net. This could cause unintended mortalities if the device was lost and the
small lobster could not escape. As a result, these new style devices could be considered
traps, which are not legal for recreational take and are not constructed in a way
consistent with the legal requirements as specified in Fish and Game Code Section 9010.
Wardens in the field are reporting the popularity and efficiency of the new style devices.
They are finding the success of those using these devices much greater then those using
the old style hoop nets. As of July 1, 2009, the Department had entered data from 10%
(2716) of the report cards received. Of the 2716 cards, the data showed that there were
790 people using traditional style hoop nets to take lobsters. There were 531 people
using the new style devices. The current data shows that there is a 1.81 catch per outing
with the old style hoop nets and a 2.43 catch per outing with the new style devices.
The field wardens feel some of these new style devices act like traps. This causes a
concern that the recreational hoop net fishery is evolving into something that was not
intended when the legislature prohibited the use of traps for recreational lobster fishing
(Fish and Game Code Sections 8250.5 and 7256).
Unless the Fish and Game Code is changed to permit recreational use of traps for the
take of lobster, the Department is obliged to make sure recreational lobster fishermen
use legal hoop nets. In this regard, a problem exists because there is no definition of a
legal hoop net. A definition of a hoop net is needed to make the methods of take
enforceable and compliant with the intent of the legislature.
The Department is providing two options for the definition of a hoop net for the
commission to consider. The definitions will include the old style hoop net that lies flat on
the ocean floor as well as the new style device. In addition, both options contain minor
changes to enhance enforcement regarding the number of hoop nets permitted for use
and on vessels and possession of spears or hooking devices when scuba diving for
lobsters.
The current wording in CCR T-14 29.80 (b) needs to be written in a way that makes the
intention of the section more enforceable. Currently a person may not fish with more
then 5 baited hoop nets south of Point Arguello while taking crabs and lobsters. The
wording “fished” and “baited” make this section hard to enforce. In order to meet the
elements of a crime, the nets in the water have to be baited. If the lobster or crabs eat
the bait when it in the water prior to the warden pulling the hoop net, there would be no
violation since the net is not baited. New wording needs to be added to the section
making the limit for hoop nets, a possession limit, not a “fished” limit. This way the
section can be enforceable.
There is a restriction in the regulations that no hooked device be possessed while diving
for crustaceans. It is common for wardens to contact divers with spears when diving for
lobsters. Some of the spears have barbs (hooked devices) and some do not. Spears,
such as Hawaiian slings, usually do not have barbs but do have long handles. The spear
is capable of assisting in the take of lobsters without leaving spear holes in the lobster.
Enforcement recommends that spears or hooked devices not he allowed to be
possessed while diving or attempting to dive for crustaceans.
Option 1
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This option creates a definition of a hoop net that requires the main parts of the hoop net
to lay flat on the ground and not have an elevated upper hoop ring. This will permit the
lobsters to more freely move in and out of the hoop net and therefore keep the
recreational take of lobster consistent with the legislative intent.
The Department recommends this option since it is consistent with Fish and Game
Code.
Option 2
This option allows for up to 3 hoops to be integrated into the hoop net. It would allow for
the top hoop to sit no more then 10 inches off of the ocean floor if supported and have an
inside diameter between 19 and 21 inches. This definition would also include the current
make up of the old style hoop net which lies flat on the ocean floor when deployed. This
option also restricts the possession of these nets to 3 for one person and 6 if more then
one person is fishing from a boat for lobsters. The reason for this change is the
efficiency of the new device.
The Department does not recommend this option since it is not consistent with Fish and
Game Code and it is unclear weather or not it may negatively effect lobster population
due to the increase in take of lobster by the sport fishery.
(b) Authority and Reference Sections from Fish and Game Code for Regulation:
Authority: Sections 202, 205, 215 and 220 Fish and Game Code.
Reference: Section 202, 205, 206, 215 and 220 Fish and Game Code.
(c) Specific Technology or Equipment Required by Regulatory Change:
None
(d) Identification of Reports or Documents Supporting Regulation Change:
Book by Jamie Salazar called “Hoopin’ It Up a Guide to Lobster and Crab Hoop netting”
explains the use of both type types of hoop nets and shows what the nets look like and
how they are fished.
(e) Public Discussions of Proposed Regulations Prior to Notice publication:
None
IV. Description of Reasonable Alternatives to Regulatory Action:
(a) Alternatives to Regulation Change:
Allow lobsters to be taken with traps.
This alternative would increase the take of lobsters and possibly negatively impact the
lobster resource. It would also increase the efficiency of taking lobster, which would
likely increase the illegal commercialization of the recreational fishery.
(b) No Change Alternative:
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The no change alternative would allow the current confusion to continue with no clear
guidance as to what is or is not a legal hoop net.
(c) Consideration of Alternatives:
Alternative #1: The definition of a hoop net will only include the old traditional type of
hoop net that lies flat on the ocean floor and allow lobsters to come and go freely. This
option will also clarify that you cannot possess more then 5 hoop nets while taking
lobsters or possess no more then 10 on a boat if more then 2 people are taking lobsters.
Alternate #2: The definition will include wording that will allow both the traditional as well
as the new style conical design device which allows for the top ring of the device to sit
above the ocean floor when deployed. This option will also make it unlawful to possess
more then 3 of the conical shaped devices when fishing for lobsters.
V. Mitigation Measures Required by Regulatory Action:
The proposed regulatory action will have no negative impact on the environment; therefore, no
mitigation measures are needed.
VI. Impact of Regulatory Action:
The potential for significant statewide adverse economic impacts that might result from the
proposed regulatory action has been assessed, and the following initial determinations relative to
the required statutory categories have been made:
(a) Significant Statewide Adverse Economic Impact Directly Affecting Businesses, Including
the Ability of California Businesses to Compete with Businesses in Other States:
Proposal #1 may have an economic impact on those who currently sell the new style
device that has the ring that sits above the ocean floor when deployed. The company
that has a patent on the new style devices also manufactures the old style hoop net. If
the new style device were banned, they could still sell the old style hoop net throughout
the State.
(b) Impact on the Creation or Elimination of Jobs Within the State, the Creation of New
Businesses or the Elimination of Existing Businesses, or the Expansion of Businesses in
California: None
(c) Cost Impacts on a Representative Private Person or Business:
The agency is not aware of any cost impacts that a representative private person or
business would necessarily incur in reasonable compliance with the proposed action.
People who currently possess the rigid type device may be able to modify the device by
cutting off the rigid pieces of metal which would allow the net to lie flat. This device would
then fit the proposed definition of a hoop net. The estimated cost of the new style device
is $20 - $40 without the line and float rigging.
(d) Costs or Savings to State Agencies or Costs/Savings in Federal Funding to the State:
None
(e) Nondiscretionary Costs/Savings to Local Agencies: None
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(f) Programs mandated on Local Agencies or School Districts: None
(g) Costs Imposed on Any Local Agency or School District that is Required
to be Reimbursed Under Part 7 (commencing with Section 17500) of Division 4: None
(h) Effect on Housing Costs: None
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Informative Digest/Policy Statement Overview
29.80 (b) states that spiny lobster may be taken by baited hoop nets. There is currently no definition of
what a baited hoop net is. For many years a hoop net consisted of two hoops connected by net meshing.
The top hoop was larger then the bottom hoop. When the hoop net sat on the bottom of the ocean it laid
flat. When lobster fed on bait attached to the hoop net they were free to come and go with nothing
keeping them in the hoop net. When it was raised to the surface the net meshing stretched out between
the hoops and it caught anything that was feeding in the net at the time it was raised.
Within the last couple of years there have been several types of devices developed that are being called
hoop nets. These newly created devices are becoming more and more efficient and are beginning to
have the design and are fishing like a trap. Section 29.80 (a)(2) prohibits the use of traps to take lobster.
These newly designed devices consist of an upper and lower metal hoop. The bottom hoop is
approximately 3 feet in diameter. The upper hoop is about 1-2 feet in diameter. The two hoops are
separated with 3-4 rigid pieces of metal approximately 6-12 inches in length, which are connected to both
hoops so the upper hoop sits about 6 -12 inches above the lower hoop. Between the two hoops is mesh
netting. When the device sits on the ocean floor, the top hoop is supported by rigid arms which allow the
top hoop to sit above the lower hoop with mesh netting raised in between the two hoops. A lobster will
climb up the outside of the mesh netting and enter the top of the device. It then climbs into the net to get
to the bait. Depending on the height of the upper hoop, the lobster may or may not be able to exit the
device. When the lobster needs to make a quick escape, such as when the device is moved, the lobster
swims backwards into the mesh netting and cannot escape. It is also questionable weather a small
lobster, once inside the net, can crawl out of the net. This could be an issue if the device was lost and the
small lobster could not be released back into the open ocean waters.
Wardens in the field are also commenting on the popularity and efficiency of the newly designed devices.
The wardens are finding the success of those using the new devices much greater then those using the
old style hoop net that lays flat on the ocean floor until lifted. The field wardens feel some of these
“devices” act like a trap, however, there is no definition of what a legal hoop net is supposed to look like.
A definition of a hoop net is needed to make the methods of take for lobster enforceable.
The Department is providing two options for the definition of a hoop net for the commission to decide on
which definition should be used. The definitions will include the traditional style hoop net that lies flat on
the ocean floor as well as the new style device that has the second smaller ring that sits 6-12 inches off of
the ocean floor.
As of July 1, 2009, the Department had entered data from 2716 lobster report cards. It is estimated that
there are 22,000 to 25,000 lobster report cards to be turned in from the 2008 lobster season. Of the
2716 cards, the data showed that there were 790 people using traditional style hoop nets to take
lobsters. There were 531 people using the new style devices. The current data shows that there is a
1.81 catch per outing with the old style hoop nets and a 2.43 catch per outing with the new style devices.
These figures come from approximately 10% of the total lobster report cards.
By creating a definition of a hoop net that requires the main parts of the hoop net to lay flat on the ground
and not have an elevated upper hoop ring, the lobster will be able to more freely move in and out of the
hoop net and therefore keep the sport take of lobster at a more historical level and not have a detrimental
impact on the overall lobster resource.
Since there is no current definition of a hoop net, enforcement officers have a hard time proving that a
modified or newly designed device is trapping the lobster and therefore is considered a trap, which is
unlawful to use. With the newly designed device, the device contains both hoops and mesh netting
therefore creating a “hoop net.” However the design acts as a trap at times.
-7-
The current wording in CCR T-14 29.80 (b) needs to be written in a way that makes the intention of the
section more enforceable. Currently a person may not fish with more then 5 baited hoop nets south of
Piont Arguello while taking crabs and lobsters. The wording “fished” and “baited” make this section hard
to enforce. In order to meet the elements of a crime, the nets in the water have to be baited. If the
lobster or crabs eat the bait when in the water prior to the warden pulling the hoop net, there would be no
violation since the net is not baited. New wording needs to be added to the section making the limit for
hoop nets, a possession limit, not a “fished” limit. This way the section can be enforceable.
There is a restriction in the regulations that no hooked device be possessed while diving for crustaceans.
It is common for wardens to contact divers with spears when diving for lobsters. Some of the spears
have barbs (hooked devices) and some do not. Spears, such as Hawaiian slings, usually do not have
barbs but do have long handles. The spear is capable of assisting in the take of lobsters without leaving
spear holes in the lobster. Enforcement recommends that spears or hooked devices not be allowed to
be possessed while diving or attempting to dive for crustaceans.

[sickcat]

Originally Posted by rojodiablo

With ALL real fisheries management, there is a lag between technology being deployed vs. the assessment of it's effectiveness. If you could imagine, what if fishing gear was like medicine, and everything had to be approved BEFORE it was sold on the market!?
Look back to history on every fishery front, and see how it works. As fishermen, we tend to be creative in pursuing our quarry. Just like hunters and trail cams, scents, camoflauge, etc. So, we find better tools for fishing. We can be too effective. It happens. It can become an issue of overharvesting of the resource. The line is there, and it is not always clear, especially not at first. After an explosion of numbers of recreational fishermen on hoopnets, there were several improvements to the hoops themselves. The question becomes, 'is it too effective?' Do the newer nets create an unfair advantage? Do they start to have retention that is more in line with commercial traps rather than recreational gear? It does come down to overall take numbers with regards to the resource also. The commercial take is pretty steady. There has never been a collapse in lobster here due to commercial take. But YOU and I, the recreational hoopnetters and divers were the first ones to complain about catch numbers falling. So, stop and think about what has changed- More commercial pressure? NO. More diving pressure? NO. More hoopnetting pressure? BINGO. So, they are looking at managing the resource, rather than closing it down. There was no data base for recreational catch rates for lobster, that is the reason for the lobster cards. They waited 2 cycles before making any suggestion on gear changes. They do not have any full data base yet. As they gather information regarding lobster catch data, and overall stock health, we will see other regulation changes.
No different than rockfishing; gone are the days of 10 hook gangions. The depth allowed was brought very shallow, the stock was reassessed, and the depth restriction was relaxed. Next we will see catch allowed relaxed a bit, especially on Bocaccio, as the stock is assessed again. It is impossible for an agency like the DFG to be 100% pro-active on fishery management.
You also muct average in some level of poaching take within the total amount of lobster harvested each year. And that number is on the rise steadily also. They know it, but it is hard to catch them.

VERY well put. People can bitch and moan all they want - I am glad to see the F&G staying on top on changes to the lobster fishery. It has been pretty well managed for quite a while now and they are trying to keep it that way. The regs for hoopnets was always a little vague all the more so when eclipse nets came on the scene.

As others have said - fisheries management, what a concept!!

[ISLAND BOUND]

Originally Posted by rivertake

"heresay" doesn't cut it.

To make a conical style hoop illegal based on an 18% supposed better catch ratio, is absurd! So someone makes a better fish trap, feather, jig or whatever. The DFG doesn't like how much more effective the new "mouse trap" is. They are "concerned" about the fishery and outlaw the new and better fish trap, feather, jig.

Again I say since when does American ingenuity and creativity deserve to be punished?

The argument is not wether flat or conical is better. DFG wants to outlaw conicals because they consider them to be a trap.


If I were the owner of promar, or Daniellson and had as much money invested in conical design,,,, I would have a damn good attorney making sure that the DFG does not just willy nilly decide that my product was a trap. I know for fact that lobsters can crawl in and out of conicals. Simple as that. They are not traps!!!

You are right on the money Dave!! yes conicals are easier to use but give the hopp a good shake even from 80 feet and they will bolt out no problema!! A CONICAL HOOP IS NOT A TRAP!!!!!!

[TailsGalore]

Originally Posted by rojodiablo
But YOU and I, the recreational hoopnetters and divers were the first ones to complain about catch numbers falling. So, stop and think about what has changed- More commercial pressure? NO. More diving pressure? NO. More hoopnetting pressure? BINGO. So, they are looking at managing the resource, rather than closing it down. There was no data base for recreational catch rates for lobster, that is the reason for the lobster cards. They waited 2 cycles before making any suggestion on gear changes. They do not have any full data base yet. As they gather information regarding lobster catch data, and overall stock health, But YOU and I, the recreational hoopnetters and divers were the first ones to complain about catch numbers falling. So, stop and think about what has changed- More commercial pressure? NO. More diving pressure? NO. More hoopnetting pressure? BINGO. So, they are looking at managing the resource, rather than closing it down. There was no data base for recreational catch rates for lobster, that is the reason for the lobster cards. They waited 2 cycles before making any suggestion on gear changes. They do not have any full data base yet. As they gather information regarding lobster catch data, and overall stock health,


I don't remember ever complaining about decreasing numbers for catching lobster. The last two years have been epic for me and my crew. I have seen more lobster in general the last two years than in any previous years with the exception of two or three previous. The red tide year was
unbelievable and the two el nino years were off the hook. I have fished lobster for a long time. There are more lobster crawling now than ever before!

It is way too soon to make any changes to gear code regulations. DFG does not have adequate data to substanciate radical changes to current hoop net design.

I fish both conicals and flats now. When I mark my report card I mark 1,2 under the gear code section. When I catch my limit of 7 tails,,, where do the number of lobsters caught get credited to?

I think in the future I will fish as many conicals as allowed but always at least one flat. I will mark my report card with a 1 (flat) under the gear code and that way any lobsters caught are credited to flats and not conicals. I am sure that conicals are overly credited for an inflated by the DFG biased evaluation on the performance of conicals vs. flats.

Thats my 2C.

[lobzila]

I beleive the main reason for changing the number of hoops allowed on a boat my be due to the fact of how much area one boat can tie up. With the explosion of hoopnetting, more and more people are doing it now and the areas it is normally done in are not getting any bigger. If one guy puts his nets out 100 yards apart along a breakwall, he has tied up a 1/2 mile of area. This works out when everyone plays nice and gets along. Most all the hoopnetters I know hate it when anyone else gets within 50 yards of there nets. How many times have there been story posted of people stealing each others traps, diver/hoopnetter confrontations, hoopnetter/hoopnetter confrontations? I read them all the time. Maybe it was being proposed to help alleiveate those headaches. If you get a limit of bugs in two hours with ten nets, how much longer will it take you to do it with six?
Also one of the regulations is your are supposed to stay within sight of your gear at all times. I know lots of people who set a string, run back to the dock and get dinner, and then go pull the string.

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by rivertake

Again I disagree,,,the lobsters are not "trapped". I have seen them get out of conicals on more than a few occasions. The "semi enclosed structure" as you call it is half open. They can and do climb out!

my argument is, was, and will continue to be that a conical is not a trap. Lobsters can and do get out! Prove otherwise and you win it is a trap. I can prove they get out! The whole basis for DFG making conicals illegal is that they are a trap.

.

Do you think lobsters can not climb out of commercial traps? It was about Maine lobsters rather than CA spinys, but I believe Woods Hole Oceanographic did a study on traps by mounting a camera to commercial lobter traps to observe their behavior and they watched lobsters come and go as they pleased. Two main things would happen. A big lobster would get in the trap and "defend" it from as many of the smaller lobsters as it could keep up with and then when all fo the bait was gone, they would simply leave.

You are absolutley right, lobsters can crawl out of a conical net. They can also crawl out of commercial traps. But, conical nets and commercial traps are not as easy for a lobster to crawl out of as a flat hoop net. The conical nets give the angler an advantage. Period. End of story.

Back to the duck hunting reference, My 870 can hold 5 shells, but by law I have to have a plug in the magazine tube restricting me to three. Those other two shells give me an advantage. Just like the inward angle of your conical nets.

Oh and BTW, making an alter ego so that you can argue your own point using another name is very lame.

[plj46]

if you cant see why a conical net is more effective than a flat net your ignorant or just not very smart ,just take a good look at them together and think real hard,i know a lot of you have invested alot in your gear and now it may end up being useless but this change will probably happen,at least its only hoopnets,wait until the MPA shit goes into effect and those of us with our nice boats dont fish much anymore because the places we like to fish are off limits.Hey just think of the money we can save in the future when we dont need to gas up the boat or even to buy afishing license because there is no fishing allowed anyway

[M/V Santa Rosa]

see ya all tuesday night at he outboard motor club,,,

Hummmmmmmmmmm Butter

[One_Leg]

Originally Posted by M/V Santa Rosa

see ya all tuesday night at he outboard motor club,,,

Hummmmmmmmmmm Butter

Ha Ha Ha........Lobster with drawn BUTTER.




Uni_Goop/Uni Butter...............


Motor boatin is NOT





.

[Saba Slayer]

Hi Guys
I know some of this is redundant info ...but here goes...
The DFG is considering a change in the regulations for Lobster Hoop Net gear.
There will be two informational meetings and you can comment at that time: Tuesday Sept.22 at 7pm at the Outboard Boating Club at Shelter Island Boat Ramp facility, 2210 Shelter Island Drive in S.D.
Thursday Sept.24th at 6:30pm at the Upper Newport Bay Ecological Reserve, 600 Shellmaker Road in Newport Beach.
I am trying to contact the DFG and schedule another meeting that is closer for the LA and Ventura County guys. I'll post if something comes up!
If you are interested and want some more info here is the link to the DFG site with some pdf downloads...
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/regulations/ne...dregs09.asp#sf
Scroll down to the following and you'll get caught up on all the info.

Gear Restrictions - Salt Water Crustaceans (Hoop Nets)
Amend Section 29.80
Initial Statment of Reasons for Regulatory Action (.pdf format) Proposed Regulatory Language (.pdf format)
Spiny Lobsters (Lobster tailing)
Amend Section 29.90
Initial Statment of Reasons for Regulatory Action (.pdf format) Proposed Regulatory Language (.pdf format)

If you would like to contact the DFG commission before Oct. 1st which is the next meeting date and express how you feel and which proposal you like or if you have some alternate info to offer please do so. Here is the contact info...
California Fish and Game Commission
1416 Ninth Street
P.O. Box 944209
Sacramento, CA 94244-2090

Phone # (916) 653-4899

Fax # (916) 653-5040

E-Mail fgc@fgc.ca.gov
(Please include the subject of the regulations in the E-Mail subject line.)
Section 29.80, Title 14, CCR, Gear Restriction Option #1 or Option #2 (Lobster Hoop Nets)

[sam1963]

I'd like to see all you hoopers pushed out to sixty feet deep .
your not safe for divers.
Good luck on the opener.

[ISLAND BOUND]

Originally Posted by sam1963

I'd like to see all you hoopers pushed out to sixty feet deep .
your not safe for divers.
Good luck on the opener.

How about we stay inside 100 feet and YOU stay outside of 100 feet