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Old Jun-16-2008, 05:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Smokeless powder????

Any California muzzleloaders here? Going to be buying a muzzleloader, and need to know if CA allows smokeless powder or not. I looked in the book but can't find it.

How about surrounding states like CO, AZ, or NM, where I might want to use it for an elk hunt one of these years.

It makes a difference in what I buy, as some can shoot it and some can't.

Thanks

Sean
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Old Jun-16-2008, 05:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Sean,

That will take some researching. I noticed that Wash. state requires exposed primers. That eliminates any in-lines from hunting in Wash.

Some states require iron sights, some allow scopes. I am pretty sure you can use Pyrodex and other pellets in CA though.

Found it, page 16 Sec 353: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/08-09-mammal-regs.pdf

General Big Game Regulations
311.6. Prohibition of Rifles and Pistols in Picacho and Providence Mountains State Recreation Areas.
The use of rifles and pistols to take any bird or mammal is prohibited in Picacho and Providence Mountains State Recreation Areas.
350. Big Game Defined.
“Big game” means the following: deer (genus Odocoileus), elk (genus Cervus), pronghorn antelope (genus Antilocapra), wild pig (feral pigs, European wild pigs and their hybrids (genus Sus), black bear (genus Ursus) and Nelson bighorn sheep (subspecies Ovis canadensis nelsoni) in the areas described in subsection 4902(b) of the Fish and Game Code.
351. Forked-Horn Buck, Antlerless and Either-Sex Deer Defined.
(a) Forked-Horn Buck Defined. For the purpose of these regulations a forked-horn buck is defined as a male deer having a branched antler on either side with the branch in the upper two-thirds of the antler. Eyeguards or other bony projections on the lower one-third of the antler shall not be considered as points or branches.
(b) Antlerless Deer Defined. For the purpose of these regulations, antlerless deer are defined as female deer, fawns of either sex other than spotted
fawns, and male deer with an unbranched antler on one or both sides which is not more than three inches in length.
(c) Either-Sex Deer Defined. For the purpose of these regulations, either-sex deer are defined as antlerless deer as described in Section 351 (b), or legal bucks that have two or more points in the upper two-thirds of either antler. Spike bucks may not be taken.
352. Shooting Hours on Big Game.
Hunting and shooting hours for big game, including but not limited to deer, antelope, elk, bear, and wild pig shall be from one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset.
353. Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.
(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353(b) through(h), Title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by Section 350, Title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow (see Section 354, Title 14, CCR, for archery equipment regulations); or wheellock, matchlock, flintlock or percussion type, including “in-line” muzzleloading rifles using black powder or equivalent black powder substitute, including pellets, with a single projectile loaded from the muzzle and at least .40 caliber in designation. For purposes of Section 353, a “projectile” is defined as any bullet, ball, sabot, slug, buckshot or other device which is expelled from a firearm through a barrel by force.
(b) Shotguns capable of holding not more than three shells firing single slugs may be used for the taking of deer, bear and wild pigs. In areas where the discharge of rifles or shotguns with slugs is prohibited by county ordinance, shotguns capable of holding not more than three shells firing size 0 or 00 buckshot may be used for the taking of deer only.
(c) Pistols and revolvers using centerfire cartridges
with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take deer, bear, and wild pigs
(d) Pistols and revolvers with minimum barrel lengths of 4 inches, using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles may be used to take elk and bighorn sheep.
(e) Except as provided in subsection 354(j), crossbows may be used to take deer and wild pigs only during the regular seasons.
(f) Under the provisions of a muzzleloading rifle only tag, hunters may only possess muzzleloading
rifles as described in subsection 353(a) equipped with open or “peep” type sights only.
(g) Under the provisions of a muzzleloading rifle/archery tag, hunters may only possess muzzleloading rifles with sights as described in subsection 353(f); archery equipment as described in Section 354; or both. For purposes of this subsection, archery equipment does not include crossbows, except as provided in subsection 354(j).
(h) Methods of take within the California condor
range. Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to use or possess projectiles containing more than one percent lead by weight while taking or attempting to take any big game (as defined in Section 350, Title 14, CCR) in those areas described in Section 3004.5, Fish and Game Code.
(1) Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful
to possess any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount permitted in subsection 353(h) and a firearm capable of firing the projectile
while taking or attempting to take any big game within the area described in subsection 353(h). The possession of a projectile containing
lead in excess of the amount allowed in subsection 353(h) without possessing a firearm capable of firing the projectile is not a violation of this section.
(i) Except as otherwise provided, while taking or attempting to take big game under the provisions
of Section 353 or Section 354, Title 14, CCR, it is unlawful to use any device or devices
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Old Jun-16-2008, 05:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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When I checked 2 years ago it was "no go" on smokeless in CA. Which is really stupid. I asked DFG about this then and never got a response.
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Old Jun-16-2008, 05:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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btw Sean I have a Savage 10ML II in 50 cal that is my all time favorite gun to shoot. It is deadly to 125 yds and probably more (as much as you are comfortable with open sights) - which is another DFG reg. I wonder how many deer are wounded because of open sights.
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Old Jun-16-2008, 05:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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nope, black powder only. most states are the same. Look at a TC Omega or a Knight Bighorn. Both are proven.
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Old Jun-16-2008, 06:14 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Name: Dave
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Does this read that pellets are ok? But I'm a dork, I don't think smokeless is a black powder substitute.

353. Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.
(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353(b) through(h), Title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by Section 350, Title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding projectiles; bow and arrow (see Section 354, Title 14, CCR, for archery equipment regulations); or wheellock, matchlock, flintlock or percussion type, including “in-line” muzzleloading rifles using black powder or equivalent black powder substitute, including pellets, with a single projectile loaded from the muzzle and at least .40 caliber in designation. For purposes of Section 353, a “projectile” is defined as any bullet, ball, sabot, slug, buckshot or other device which is expelled from a firearm through a barrel by force.
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Old Jun-16-2008, 08:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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He's not even going to go, let alone shoot anything. here comes the question So I bought this thing now where do I go?


Seriously. I thought about going that route a couple years ago but I barley have time and $$ to do what I do now.
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Old Jun-16-2008, 09:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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let me call my lawyer and i'll get back to you all?
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Old Jun-16-2008, 10:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Smokeless powder is not a black powder substitute. The substitute they are referring to is Pyrodex.
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Old Jun-17-2008, 09:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Jackson View Post
Sean,

That will take some researching. I noticed that Wash. state requires exposed primers. That eliminates any in-lines from hunting in Wash.

ces
Skip, you are correct about WA. requiring exposed primers. However, there is a way to get around this regulation in WA. and hunt with an in-line and be legal. Most manufactures have nipples/primer combinations that meet the WA. state requirements.
However, 209 primers are not legal.

Dan
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Old Jun-17-2008, 10:04 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afry View Post
btw Sean I have a Savage 10ML II in 50 cal that is my all time favorite gun to shoot. It is deadly to 125 yds and probably more (as much as you are comfortable with open sights) - which is another DFG reg. I wonder how many deer are wounded because of open sights.
Arnie,

Glad that Dave posted this, as I wasn't expecting that. Was already looking at scopes......

Maybe look at something detachable, so I can us it here with open sites, and throw a scope on for out of state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluester View Post
He's not even going to go, let alone shoot anything. here comes the question So I bought this thing now where do I go?


Seriously. I thought about going that route a couple years ago but I barley have time and $$ to do what I do now.


If you must know, I already have the spot picked out for muzzleloading, as well as archery. I have been up to Palomar (again), and am pretty excited at the sign. As well as the fact that it's only 40 miles to the top, not like the 78 to the hill each way....

I looked at the # of tags issued, and they give out almost exactly what they have for first tag choices, so basically every one who puts it down, gets it. Also, it's either sex, so I don't need to be picky.

Last edited by Vermonster; Jun-17-2008 at 10:08 AM..
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Old Jun-17-2008, 11:23 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermonster View Post
Arnie,

Glad that Dave posted this, as I wasn't expecting that. Was already looking at scopes......

Maybe look at something detachable, so I can us it here with open sites, and throw a scope on for out of state.





If you must know, I already have the spot picked out for muzzleloading, as well as archery. I have been up to Palomar (again), and am pretty excited at the sign. As well as the fact that it's only 40 miles to the top, not like the 78 to the hill each way....

I looked at the # of tags issued, and they give out almost exactly what they have for first tag choices, so basically every one who puts it down, gets it. Also, it's either sex, so I don't need to be picky.
I see you as more of a blunderbuss type of guy
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