Hey Fred what-about the GOM?

[billspen101]

I read A LOT about from you on the east coast, left coast and Ol' MeHEEco... but what are using in the Gulf of Mexico (IE:Lump to Desoto)??

..........layin' awake nights thinking about what I'm gonna hang on those neck'ed bars I've got on order!

TKS!
Billspen

[Fred Archer]

BILL,

NOT MUCH GOM TIME UNDER MY BELT, BUT TUNA'S A TUNA, A WAHOO'S A WAHOO, A BLUE ONE IS A BLUE ONE AND SO ON, WHEREVER THEY SWIM AND I HAVE MANY DECADES OF CATCHING ALL OF THOSE. SORRY, BUT IT'S GONNA BE A WHILE ON THE NAKED BARS. WE ARE OVERWHELMED WITH ORDERS FOR FINISHED BARS RIGHT NOW AND THEY ARE OUR FIRST PRIORITY. NAKED BAR ORDERS ARE ON THE BACK BURNER FOR NOW...HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND.

[billspen101]

"BUT TUNA'S A TUNA, A WAHOO'S A WAHOO, A BLUE ONE IS A BLUE ONE"....
t's what I figured - just wondering if you had any deciples runnin' 'em in the Gulf...... I'll ask the same thing to the GOM'ers on THT

AND that's cool, I'm BACK on blocks repairing some Yankee's version of a hull patch (5200, covered with bottom paint! DON'T GET ME STARTED!) ...So I can be patient for a bit.

ARE THERE any GOM'ers draggin' Freds Bars out there (or bars in general)? What sizes teasers/chasers are working best for you? I would assume it varies through the season? The ONLY squid I've seen from the gulf were coming off a pier and where about 12-14" in mid June.

TKS! Capt'n........... tranquilo!

GOM'ers thanks in advance for input!

Billspen

[Fred Archer]

BILL,

DOESN'T LOOK LIKE YOU'VE HAD MUCH SUCCESS FINDING A GOMER WHO HAS FISHED BARS AND DREDGES. ONE WHO HAS IS CAPTAIN RANDALL HALL, A TEXAS CHARTER CAPTAIN WHO HAS HAD A LOT OF EXPERIENCE WITH THEM. I DON'T THINK THAT RANDALL COMES HERE, BUT I'LL TRY TO HUNT DOWN AN EMAIL FOR YOU.

[billspen101]

Dang Capt'n......... I appreciate that!!
Bill

[andyyar]

Bill, i ordered 7 sets of bars this winter and so far have only gotten to pull them three times. I fish out of Orange Beach, Alabama. We have pulled them around the rigs on two occasions thus far when the tuna just haven't been there. The cuda's really took a liking to them so we hauled them in, before we lost em. On the third trip (another lifeless day in the GOM) we raised two wahoo catching one. I am really looking forward to putting some more time in with them this summer. I can tell you that they run beautifully behind my center console and I'm sure that given time they will raise a lot of fish. We have pulled them on three lifeless days, but they have nature fooled. we've had birds crashing our spread like a ball of bait so i know the bars are doing their job. When tournament fishing, we are primarily bait and lure fishing, since the armed bars are not yet IGFA legal, and we're not big bait and switch guys. When meat fishing we plan to pull a spread of 7 bars for my lure spread to cover ground. I'm pulling two spiders short corner run deep under the propwash. Im pulling two meatball bars long rigger and two superbars short rigger with a ruckus raiser in the center of that box. the spread looks amazing, and i swear it looks better the faster you pull it up to about 12 knots. We expect to be able to cover a lot of ground billfishing with it looking mighty mighty fishy behind the boat. Please relate your experience once you get yours in. I've rigged half my chase baits with circle hooks and look forward to comparing the hookup ratios with the J's at the same speed/drag etc. I really like the ruckus raiser.

ay

[billspen101]

AY: What size teasers are on those bars you've been draggin'? I've been trying to figure out how to match the hatch so to speak, as I am going to build my own from Fred's naked bars.
I am trying to research what types of squid are indigenous to the GOM now. I've only been able to find one type of open water squid, but there's surely more than that. I know for a fact that Humbolts have actually been found there, but as yet unable to find out exacly where those where.... not that I'd want to hang 4' teasers off my bars to match HB's!

Fred: I'm wondering now if it even matters. I mean if you've got a couple hundred little squids swimming around behind your boat, don't you think you'd be "creating" your own "hatch"? Especially if they are tiny ones?

Thanks fellers!
Bill

[Fred Archer]

BILL,

I DON'T BELIEVE, NOR HAVE I EVER BELIEVED THAT FISH TAKE HOLLOW BODY SQUID SPREADERBAR TEASERS AND CHASEBAITS AS JUST SQUID. I BELIEVE THAT WHEN THERE IS FINBAIT AROUND THAT IS ABOUT, SAY, 6" SO LONG, 6" BAR TEASERS ARE TAKEN FOR FIN BAIT. LIKEWISE, IF THE MOST ABUNDANT BAIT AROUND IS 6" SQUID, THE HOLLOW SQUIDS ARE TAKEN BY THE FISH AS SUCH.

IF YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT AND LOOK AT A HOLLOW SQUID JUST FROM THE SHAPE ASPECT, IT IS SHAPED ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE A TROLLING LURE LIKE A ZUKER OR A JET, ONLY WITHOUT THE HEAD BEING HEAVY AND HARD. JUST LIKE THE FEATHERS OR JETS, A HOLLOW SQUID OR SQUIDS REPRESENT PREY OF SOME KIND MOVING THROUGH THE WATER AND IF IT'S THE RIGHT SIZE TO MATCH OR COME CLOSE TO MATCHING WHAT THE FISH ARE ZEROED IN ON, THEY GET BIT. AND IF THOSE SQUIDS ARE ARRANGED AS A SMALL POD OF BAIT IN A NATURAL "PANICKED" SCHOOL FORMATION WITH A STRAGGLER TRYING TO CATCH UP TO IT, IT RAISES AND CATCHES FISH FAR BETTER THAN ANY SINGLE LURE EVER COULD...I GIVE YOU SUPERBARS, DAISYBARS AND SPIDERS.

MOLDED SQUIDS ARE A DIFFERENT MATTER. THEY LOOK EXACTLY LIKE REAL SQUID AS FAR AS BODY SHAPE IS CONCERNED, RIGHT DOWN TO THEIR FINS AND ARE PROBABLY TAKEN - OR REJECTED IF THE FISH ARE ON FIN BAIT - MUCH MORE OFTEN AS SQUID THAN THE MORE UNIVERSALLY SHAPED HOLLOW SQUIDS. BECAUSE THEY ARE FAR HEAVIER AND CREATE VASTLY MORE DRAG THAN HOLLOW SQUIDS AND THUS ARE LIMITED FROM THE TROLLING SPEED AND CLEAN RUNNING STANDPOINTS. THEY MAKE SHITTY SPREADERBARS. IF THEY DID, WE WOULD MAKE THEM. AFTER ALL, THE TWO BIGGEST MAKERS OF MOLDED SQUIDS, FRANK JOHNSON OF MOLDCRAFT AND PETER BOONE OF BOONE BAITS ARE AMONG MY LONGEST TERM AND BEST FRIENDS. I CAN BUY THAT SORT OF SQUID AT VASTLY BETTER PRICES THAN ANYONE, BUT I DON'T. LIKE I SAID, SHORT AND SWEET, THEY MAKE SHITTY SPREADERBARS AND ARE RARELY FOUND ON ANYTHING BUT THE OLD FASHIONED, HEAVY METAL MONSTROSITIES THAT SOME SO-CALLED MANUFACTURERS TRY TO PAWN OFF AS MODERN SPREADERBARS. WHETHER YOU BUY THEM RIGGED, OR RIG YOUR OWN, ONLY USE BARS WITH HOLLOW SQUIDS ON THEM.

COLOR? OTHER THAN DARK - BLACK AND WHATEVER, IN PARTICULAR - OR WHITE AND WHATEVER IN PARTICULAR - I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT COLOR. IF YOU DO, PICK ONES THAT ARE CLOSEST TO WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO IMMITATE. PLEASE, THOUGH, DON'T ASK ME WHAT "THE BEST" COLORS ARE. I JUST GAVE YOU MY OPINION.

SIZE IS THE SINGLE MOST CRITICAL FACTOR OF THEM ALL WHEN IT COMES TO CHOOSING BARS. HERE, REMEMBER (AND READ AT LEAST ONE OF MY BOOKS FOR THE ALL DETAILS ON SPREADERBARS...IT WILL BE AMONG THE BEST THIRTY BUCKS YOU HAVE EVER SPENT), VERY SMALL BAIT, THE YOUNG FROM MILLIONS OF BAITFISH EGGS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FOOD CYCLE, IS THE MOST ABUNDANT AND EASY-TO-CATCH BAIT IN THE WATER ON ANY GIVEN DAY. EACH SUCCEEDING DAY THEIR NUMBERS ARE GREATLY REDUCED BECAUSE EVERYTHING IN THE OCEAN IS FEEDING ON THEM AND SO....THAT'S ENOUGH OF THAT FOR NOW. LIKE I SAID, READ THE MARLIN OR WAHOO BOOK, THEY ARE BOTH VIRTUAL SPREADERBAR BIBLES AND ALL-AROUND FISHING TECHNIQUE GOLD MINES...ASK ANYONE WHO HAS READ THEM.

"EVERY PICTURE TELLS A STORY, DON'T IT" THE ONES THAT FOLLOW SURE DO. I DON'T HAVE ANY PICTURES OF ZUKER FEATHERS, BUT IF I DID, YOU'D SEE THAT THEY AND HOLLOW SQUIDS ARE KISSIN' COUSINS WHEN IT COMES TO SHAPE AND LOOK. AND AS ALWAYS, A SUPERBAR LIKE THE ONE PICTURED MAKES FOR THE MOST ATTRACTIVE, NATURAL, FISH-CATCHING PRESENTATION OF THEM ALL. AND UNDERWATER, NO OTHER LURE CAN EVEN REMOTELY APPROACH THE RAW, NATURAL POWER OF A SPIDER.

AND THAT LITTLE SQUID UP TOP? DO YOU HAVE A SINGLE LURE THAT CAN EVEN REMOTELY APPROACH HOW GOOD THAT PUPPY LOOKS? IF SO, CAN YOU MAKE A SUPER LIGHTWEIGHT, EASY-TO-TROLL, NO TANGLE SPREADERBAR OUT OF IT? HO, HO!

SUPERBARS AND SPIDERS ARE SIMPLY THE BEST LURES THAT YOU CAN TROLL, PERIOD! NO MATTER WHERE YOU FISH. IT IS JUST THAT SOME FISHERMEN AND MOST IN SOME PLACES CAN'T PASS THE IQ TEST PRESENTED HERE AND MANY ARE HELD BACK BY "LOCAL EXPERTS" WHO ARE MIRED DOWN IN TRADITIONAL APPROACHES AND WHO, IN TRUTH, DON'T HAVE THE FAINTEST IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. TRADITION PARANOIA (THE FEAR OF CHANGE) AND BOGUS PROS ARE THE BIGGEST IMPEDIMENTS TO ANGLERS IMPROVING AND ADOPTING FAR MORE EFFECTIVE TECHNIQUES. SAD, BUT OH SO TRUE.

IF THIS DISCUSSION AND THE PHOTOGRAPHS BELOW DON'T UTTERLY CONVINCE YOU OF THAT, GO SIT AT THE KNEE OF THE OLD "THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE HERE" AND "THAT DON'T WORK HERE" AND "I CATCH LOTS OF FISH DOING IT THIS HERE WAY", ETC. LOCAL BONEHEAD WHO HAS BEEN LEADING YOU DOWN THE GARDEN PATH AND DO AS HE SAYS.

I REST MY CASE, YOUR HONOR.

IQ TEST OVER.

AIN'T IT A SHAME THAT THIS KIND OF INFORMATION CAN'T BE POSTED ON THE MAIN BOARDS? I BELIEVE THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF FISHERMEN ON THIS SITE WOULD BENEFIT GREATLY FROM IT. SINCERELY, AND NO BALL BUSTING INTENDED, THOSE NON-CAVE DWELLERS NEED THE HELP THE MOST.

STAY TUNED FOR "THE CAVEMAN'S CLUB". COMING SOON AND YOU ARE GOING TO FRIGGIN' LOVE IT!

[billspen101]

Yeah Fred, bought the book Mod Trolling II (wahoo book that ain't)... read it through 3 times and gone back to it many-many more times and I've only had it a few weeks. No great feat in it's self, but considering I'm a busy man, that's a lot.

I am a great admirer of your writing, as I see many parallels in our approach to the whole sport (aren't you glad some no-name shiftless assahola like me thinks so highly of you?) I came up through bass fishing too and the one thing that has held true is if some dillweed tells me "OH MY, THIS is what they're hitting" - you can bet THAT would be the last thing you'd see hangin' off one of my poles! This for reasons too numberous to mention here.
Thinking and rethinking what I've read in your book is what made me question if you could "create a hatch" Your answer about smaller baits being most previlent is probably a better description of that... simply you said "THE YOUNG FROM MILLIONS OF BAITFISH EGGS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FOOD CYCLE, IS THE MOST ABUNDANT AND EASY-TO-CATCH BAIT IN THE WATER ON ANY GIVEN DAY" that's a much better explaination of the logic I proposed... thanks for the validation. I'm fixin' to pulll the trigger on a couple hundred 3.5" squids.
Now quit hangin' around that computer, fill those OTHER orders and get to my nekit' Bars would ya'?

Tranquilo Capt'n!
billspen101 (AKA: BillS)

[johndtuttle]

RE: Captain Archer's opinion on color

[I will preface this post by saying my own training is as a Molecular Biologist and Medical Doctor where the standard of 'scientific proof' is far, far more rigorous than anything in recreational fishing. We are trained to ask questions and how to properly answer them and not make BS up, in a nutshell. The Marine Biologists struggle mightily to establish any kind of truly factual knowledge about fish and their habits as compared to what 'uncle billy' thought he saw 'one day on a high tide with the moon in a quarter phase off the port bow with 1.25 knots of current and a banana on board' sorta witch's superstitious nonsense! The "lab" in this case is our great mother Ocean and not exactly amenable to easy study and repeatable conditions nor cooperative study participants (that's fish to all you uncle billy's ). It's a difficult task to know fish and i admire the efforts of anyone who tries.]

With all due respect to my teachers like Captain Archer little of the work of the Recreational Sport Fishing Industry meets scientific standards of inquiry in this day and age to my knowledge. By report, the testing of how well lures run in the water and how to rig them to be tangle free comes very close to the 'scientific method' of how to design fishing lures and is a credit to our tinkerers and innovators. In addition, the opening of fish bellies to see what size bait they are feeding on is another example of objective data that can be used to guide our decisions as to what lures to use. Essentially, we just imitate the appearance of what fish like to eat and the Rapala minnow and any bait ball imitation (spreader bars and their variations) are fine examples of detailed observation of fish forage and what they are likely to bite. But tell me, who puts out the exact same pale grey squid color or brownish-red krill color that the fish are on? Very, very few when their staring at those purty brightly colored $25-$100 feathers they just bought that look better than a humble hoochie that seems mighty small and has little sex appeal.

So what does this have to do with anything in this thread? In all of my reading of the sport fishing literature NO ONE has ever demonstrated that a true color preference exists in Ocean game fish. Especially to the exclusion of lure size and action. NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED. And the most experienced among all our Captains will tell you that the size of the lure and its action, with a little flash not being a bad thing, is all that matters. The vast majority of people pull dark, bright and medium luminosity lures until they think they have found a 'preference' of the fish, but the reality is they have likely just found fish that wanna bite particular sized stuff that they are fixated on and their lures have the right size and action which is about 90% of salt water fishing imo.

How many reports do you hear of old iron or plastic lures with no paint left on them whatsoever catching as many fish as the latest artistic paint job? I mean, i love those purty lures too but an old panguero can jiggle a hook sweetened with a nickel-sized piece of squid on the end of his hand line and catch more fish than most of us. It should make you wonder as to what it really takes to catch fish...A poll on this site asking what color is your favorite for throwing iron got as its most popular answer 'the one that swims...'

You would need years of trolling different color lures of the exact same type and size being pulled side by side at the exact same speed for years and years under the exact same ocean conditions with the exact same forage present to collect enough data to statistically prove what color is preferred or matters. And i assure you that is the most elementary summary of the possible complexity of a proper study design imaginable. The real study has simply never been done, nor can it be done, to factually establish color preferences in Ocean fish. If it were known today lure companies would be making about 4 colors of lures, tops, and last i checked the Melton Catalog sold only about 120 different colors of skirts (I love to daydream up new color combos that will surely slay 'em too but i know i'm just delusional). If you combined just 2 different skirts together the sum of all the different combos from Melton would be over 10,000 different colors of lure...But a catalog fishes for fisherman, not fish...something we should never forget.

Captain Archer teaches us that lure action, bait ball imitation, size of lure, number of lures, possibly vibrations from them and depth of lures all are more important than color and i believe it. A fish hitting a lure on the surface is likely just hitting a silhouette against the sky that is the right size and moves like it should and a fish hitting a lure down deep where little light is present (and extremely little red light too, no one on earth knows what fish can actually 'see' or identify down there) is likely just hitting a silhouette that is the right size and moves (sends off vibrations/looks wounded/is weak) like dinner should.

A dog's brain is many many times bigger than a fish's for its body size which directly correlates with every measure of intelligence known. heck, i know dogs that are smarter than people...and that same dog will chase a ball till he drops...and he doesn't care what color it is neither. A 1000lb marlin has a brain the size of a nickel and as Captain Peter Wright says "is just like a cat attacking a string. It's attracted to the movement"...I believe fish can 'learn' something ain't right when they see a hook when they've seen 'em a million times before or been hooked once or maybe feel the pattern of vibrations from metal maybe as compared to flesh...But Ocean going fish? they aren't picky about color until some one proves it and their study is repeatable and stands up against objective scrutiny by their peers in the scientific community.

[billspen101]

Fred try the font size button set 2 to 3.. works great fer us ol farts! U gotta use the Go Advanced button though.

John:
Crap man, that was the most intellegent friggin reponse I've ever seen in any forum... Exception of the host of course!


Please find the responses to portions which found to be within my remedial grasp!

"not exactly amenable to easy study" -

That's very true! The playing field is just too big.... and the players simply move around too much.... But I wanted to be a marinebiologist as a child and never lost my curiouslty so allow me to pontificate....
I do believe that ther are distiguishable facts which do and can be applied to any kind of fishing. For instance when Capt.Archer talks about having better luck with wahoo running downhill, I can extend that to apply what I already know about all predatory fish. Which is they are a lazy bunch and it's easiest for them to face the current and cut-off prey when approaching head on, than to chase after it after it has passed and have to sit with your tail in the wind! ...basic energy conservation theory. (since pelagics don't have much need it, positioning criteria like shadow vs. cover postion relative to current, would not apply as in other cases).


"Very, very few when their staring at those purty brightly colored $25-$100 feathers they just bought that look better than a humble hoochie that seems mighty small and has little sex appeal." -

Yeah... I wish I'd read fred's stuff prior to developing the skills to make my own trolling lures! and wasting a gallon and a half of resin! I'm still gonna drag some of 'em around though - just somethin' a man's gotta do ya' know?

NO ONE has ever demonstrated that a true color preference exists in Ocean game fish.

TESTIFY BROTHER!! ...BUT still Ill argue that dark or light hues CAN make better targets under different circumstances, simply becuase I've gotten in and looked for myself!.... But I'd like to add to the low-angle (dark)/ high-angle (bright) hue thing... That is if I'm fishing baits deeper than 10-15 ft it's gonna be a dark one, period, for any preditor, in any water....

Captain Archer teaches us that lure action, bait ball imitation, size of lure, number of lures, possibly vibrations from them and depth of lures all are more important than color and i believe it. -
He'd and you'd be right on every count I know of and I got a couple-several thousand hours in myself....... although not in the offshore venue.


Thanks!
Bill

[johndtuttle]

I couldn't agree more that dark colors are strong as they create a strong silhouette for fish to identify, especially deep where all colors are changed profoundly by the filtering effects of the depths on visible light. Near the surface, something, anything, with a little flash once in awhile probably looks natural enough.

Get a copy of The Baja Catch by Kelly and Kira to also hear some basic wisdom from guys that have caught more fish than you or I ever will (literally thousands and thousands of fish caught and their book is a west coast Bible for basic techniques). They have caught these thousands of fish with essentially 6 colors of lures: Blue/Silver, Black/Silver, Green/Silver, Green/Gold, Black/Gold and Orange/Gold with their belief that you can catch anything that swims with either Blue/Silver or Orange/Gold if it came right down to it....99% of the bait fish on planet Earth are covered adequately by these few colors

Now, they don't fish too deep or far offshore so if you add Black/Purple to the list or your basic Pearl White for squid and 'Firetiger' for a peanut Dorado imitation you can catch ANYTHING that swims. Then again, if you just fished Blue/Silver for the rest of your life, you probably would never know the difference!!!

Every other color of lure is just make-up designed to seduce fisherman and their wallets or dress up an old dog and really, the basic theme is just repeated over and over, bright body/dark back or just a strong silhouette in all those hundreds of squids and minnow imitations being sold.

tight lines