Hey Fred what-about the GOM?

[ChipGas]

FRED,
HOW DO I GO ABOUT GETTING ONE OF YOUR CATALOGS? MY ADDRESS IS: 1044 S. BLACK CACTUS TRAIL, VAIL AZ 85641. I WOULD LIKE TO TRY SOME OF YOUR BARS IN THE SOC (NEAR GUAYMAS) FOR DORADO AND Yellow Fin Tuna. I AM CONVINCED THEY WILL KILL!
THANKS,
CHIP

[Fred Archer]

CHIP. PLEASE EMAIL ME AT FREDARCHER@COX.NET AND I WILL GET YOUR CATALOGS OUT TO YOU. YOU ARE RIGHT...THE WILL KILL.

JUST DON''T ASK ME WHAT COLORS ARE THE BEST. I'VE BEEN READING WHAT HAS BEEN POSTED HERE AND MY HEAD IS SPINNING. BE BACK LATER WITH WHAT I THINK ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

[DaGoose]

THIS IS SIMPLY BRILLIANT AND COMPLETLY LOGICAL DOPE.

I SURE HOPE THE FISHIES DON'T READ IT AND STOP CHASING BAITBALLS

RICK

[Fred Archer]

RIGHT ON, GOOSE. I HOPE THEY DON'T STOP HUNTING FOR THEM MEATBALLS THAT MANY (EXCEPT THEM DANGED NORTHIES WHO KNOW ABOUT THEM AND APPLY TO THEIR FISHING THAT MOST SOUTHIES DON'T LIKE TO HEAR ABOUT. THE ALBIES JUST SHOWED UP THERE YESTERDAY AND THE BARHEADS ARE ALREADY KNOCKING THE SNOT OUT THEM.) MEANWHILE, OUR GUYS ARE BURNING FUEL AND....WELL, YOU KNOW.

SOME MORE COLOR STUFF POSTED ELSEWHERE AND MORE COMING FROM ONE OF THE BOOKS WHEN I GET A CHANCE.

A Toad is always in my pattern, no matter where or what I'm fishing for. I was just too lazy to put it in that drawing. In that one, I'd be running it right down the middle and in between the four center bars and the short riggers. That is never set in concrete though and I experiment with and move the Toad around on given days to find where it is most effective. Whether I show it or not in a drawing, the Toad is always there...always!

My "day-in, day-out" spread appears to be all-surface, but I strongly believe that all of those teasers and chasebaits, plus the powerful and far-reaching vibrations of the Toad raise fish to the top from some very serious depths. I have seen this too many times on my sonar when the fish and bait were quite deep, but came charging up to the spread to ever discount it. In the end, fifty or even a hundred feet sound pretty deep to us, but measure it out and think about it and I think you'll come to realize that those kinds of depths are "just around the corner" for most gamefish as far as hearing and seeing big spreads (like 50-100 or more teasers and chasebaits outlined against the sky) and wildly thumping Toads up near the surface. And, of course, your Toad can easily be fifteen or more feet down, thereby shortening the "corner" between the fish and your spread even more.

There are points of diminishing returns, of course, but I suspect that they are much deeper than many of us think. Sure, I fish planers at times, but that is primarily to get higher speed presentations down deep and, yes, attract fish that don't want to come to the top for one reason or another. There too, there is a limit to how deep a given planer will run. I don't know of many that reach really great depths, but then again, I'm willing to learn.

I know that planers are all the rage in some areas lately, and for good reason - they work, especially if the alternative is a traditional puny surface pattern with no deep teasers to pull deep fish up, but I for one do not consider them a daily fishing tool, like a Toad or MarlinBars. I use them primarily for wahoo when I am fishing relatively shallow structure and even then, only when I am metering the bulk of the bait down there and after working my "day-in, day-out" spread up top for a while first to see if I can raise the fish to the Toad, WahooBars and ballies. That way I often, and in fact usually, get multiples going instead of one fish at a time on a planer. Many times I can raise those fish and I don't have to use the planer.

I say "don't have to use the planer" because another big factor that might be unique to me was that most of our customers frowned on the kind of heavy gear that we use for planer fishing and they absolutely did not like reeling fish in on outfits sitting in rod holders. That stuff is fine with me; in fact, I vastly prefer it personally when it comes to duking it out with a big tuna and even to a certain extent a wahoo, but the vast majority of the sportin' types that fished with me didn't like that stuff one bit, so getting the fish up in the pattern and hooking a bunch of them up top with nice, light, standup gear simply had to become our top priority and most common way of fishing and we caught a helluva lot of fish doing it the way we do. Plus the light, super strong and easy trolling MarlinBar and WahooBars let us run 12's, 16's and 20's or TLD's if the fish were the right size for that kind of tackle and we had skilled or at least moderately skilled anglers.

That last one should also be a big factor for those who fish lighter gear for smaller fish, or those who like to fight big fish on little tackle (with lots of Spectra backing). The typical, big azzed canyon tuna bars (and even the narrower, but still metal bars with all of their negatives that some copyrats are falling all over themselves trying to come up with) are simply no good for this kind of fishing because most require heavy gear just to handle and troll them. Not so with MarlinBar and WahooBars, which accounts for their popularity on the West Coast and growing use in Florida, both being lighter tackle venues and a likewise growing number of mid-Atlantic and Northeast canyon hounds who also like their lightweight and ease of handling.

So yes, planers can be an excellent fishing tool for specific situations and I have been using them and writing about them in those situations for many years now. But day-in and day-out, my so-called surface spread rules for me. And you know what? Others who try it will come to feel the very same way.

And it's important to bear in mind that the spiraling fuel prices are going to have a heavy effect on many of us, including running planers. Here, downriggers are going to become far more important than ever before, which is why both of my newest books have thorough chapters on using them for the pelagics. And one word is critically important here...SPIDER!!!!!

"Change, not repetition, is the companion of every top fisherman."

WRITTEN TO THE WORDS OF POET JANIS (IF YOU HAVE TO ASK, SHAME ON YOU!) AND THE FULL TILT BOOGY BAND IN "TRY", "RAISE YOUR HAND" AND "GET IT WHILE YOU CAN" YOU WERE SO RIGHT, GIRL. REST IN PEACE, DARLIN'.

[mitchk]

Fred,

What you are saying was along my lines of thought. Whatever that's worth...>

Primary target is Albies up here in WA/OR. I have not had a chance to try this out yet but I now have 4 downriggers. What about a multilevel meatball? Hang with me for a sec. Put a meatball on the dowriggers about 100 down with a release clip on the end instead of a hook. The same with spreaders going back. Each rigger would have a meatball down low and a spreader bar clipped on the surface. You can then handle larger bars since the rods are not connected directly to the bars. As an added bonus, Light rods and clean fights are had without the bars being attached to the fight. Anything hooked low tends to be pulled up to the spreaders behind the boat.

If I'm understanding the argument right, the bigger of a raucous the better. My additional argument is you can get bigger with light lines with downriggers. Thoughts?

How about spiders for Albies? I'm thinking the same idea without the spreaders for salmon but lack experience with meatballs with downrigger clip and spiders. If I can find rigs that score well on both them my life will be good.

[billspen101]

Well it's been a while and we've not heard from anyone from the Gulf side.

In a way I'm relieved that there aren't many GOM'ers that are dragging this kind of gear around and even more that they just aren't using their (Fred's) head..... mo' fish fo' me!

I got my bars... thanks Fred, and give ol' Rick a pat on-the-back for me. Now I gotta find some of those purdy blue beads that match the bar hardware.....

ALSO Fred I'm gonna need another book (or 2). I got your Mod Trolling II and nearly memorized it!... what do you suggest for my next reading?

thanks again!
Bill

[billspen101]

UPDATE: In the Gulf Coast forum on BD I asked the question and finally recieved ONE response...... which started with... "I don't think it matters what size" refering to the size teasers that are preferred for dredges in the Gulf....

A telling statement don't you think? I didn't bother to direct him to the "cave".

Bill

[Fred Archer]

BILL,

I HATE TO RAIN ON YOUR PARADE, BUT WE ARE GETTING BIG NUMBERS OF BIG ORDERS FROM GOMERS. AN EXAMPLE IS AN ORDER WE GOT YESTERDAY FOR TO OUTFIT A 64 VIKING ACROSS-THE-BOARD WITH BARS, SPIDERS AND RUCKUSRAISERS. THAT, ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHER MONSTER BATTLEWAGON ORDERS, PLUS SOME FOR BIGGER CENTER CONSOLES IS PROVING TO BE SUDDEN AND BIG ACCEPTANCE OF MULTIPLES FOR GOMER FISHING. ALL OF THESE GUYS ARE TOURNAMENT FISHING, SO WE SHALL SEE.

MEANWHILE, YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO GET OFF THIS "HOLLOW SQUIDS IMMITATE REAL SQUIDS" KICK. MOLDED SQUIDS, WHICH MAKE FOR SHITTY SPREADERBARS, LOOK EXACTLY LIKE REAL S2UID. LOOK AT THE SHAPE OF A HOLLOW SQUID AND YOU SHOULD SEE THAT THEY ARE SHAPED JUST LIKE A REGULAR FEATHER, JET, OR OTHER LURE AND THUS, ARE TAKEN FOR ALL OF THE DIFFERENT FIN BAITS AND SQUIDS THAT THOSE OTHER LURES ARE TAKEN FOR. THE ONLY REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES ARE BAIT SIZE AND ITS DEPTH.

THAT'S IT. FORGET ABOUT THAT SQUID STUFF.

[billspen101]

The reason I started this thread was to pick info from those enlightened Gom'ers using your stuff... those tourny guys that ARE using Archer products obviously ain't sharing... go figure! Having some bass tournaments under my belt and having a few secrets stolen (or at least in my mind...can you say finesse?) myself, I completely understand their poo-sition!

OK Fred it got it... not squids... just wee'baits... fins or tenticles dosen't matter - just fry-sized baits... I'm going with 3.5" teasers as standard for my bars, and a variety of soft chasebaits to fit the day/fish......

I'm still trying to get used to the look of those bigazz hooks in the little baits.... But I will.... oh yes...I will!!

HOLLOW SQUIDS DEFINATELY!! .....


Thank you sir!
Bill

(I feel llike I should be payin' for this info!!)

[Fred Archer]

BILL,

ROGER ON THE LITTLE SQUIDS NOT BEING SQUIDS TO THE FISH. THAT ALSO APPLIES TO THE BIGGER HOLLOWS. ONE IN PARTICULAR, OUR PROSQUID, IS A SPITTIN' IMAGE OF THE POPULAR MEDIUM BALLYHOO (SEE BELOW).

BALLYHOO ARE WITHOUT QUESTION THE MOST POPULAR NATURAL BAIT OF THEM ALL. MANY THINK OF THEM AS PRETTY INEXPENSIVE, BUT NOWADAYS THAT IS NOT TRUE. IF YOU BUY YOUR BALLYHOO FROM A LEADING SOURCE IN THE LEAST EXPENSIVE CASE QUANTITY OF A CASE OF 144 AND HAVE THEM SHIPPED THE STANDARD WAY, SECOND DAY AIR, BOUGHT THAT WAY, AND ASSUMING NONE OF THE UPS FUEL CHARGES THAT WE ARE BEING CHARGED, THAT CASE OF BAITS WILL COST YOU $316, OR $26.28 PER PACK OF TWELVE THAT YOU TAKE WITH YOU. THAT WILL COST ANGLERS FROM $27 TO AS MUCH AS $158, DEPENDING ON THE LENGTH OF THE TRIP AND HOW MANY BAITS YOU TAKE WITH YOU.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, YOU HAVE TO STORE THE BALLYHOOS IN A FREEZER, THAW, CURE, RIG, AND PUT THEM IN A BAIT COOLER. THAT NOT ONLY ADDS A LOT OF TIME TO THE COST, BUT IT ADDS DRAMATICALLY TO THE EXPENSE IF YOU PUT ANY VALUE ON YOUR TIME. AND DEFYING ECONOMICAL LOGIC...

SOME OF THOSE BAITS ARE GOING TO BLOW OUT ON YOU AND CATCH NOTHING.

SOME OF THOSE BAITS ARE GOING TO GET DESTROYED BY BOTH GAMEFISH THAT MISS THEM AND TOO MANY SMALLER, TRASH FISH THAT RUIN THEM ON YOU. AGAIN, YOU WON'T HAVE CAUGHT ANYTHING ON THOSE BAITS AND THEY ARE WASTED. IT'S JUST LIKE TOSSING MONEY INTO THE WATER!

BALLYHOO BAIT COOLER LIFE IS LIMITED, SO X NUMBER OF THEM ARE GOING TO SIT IN THE COOLER FOR TOO LONG AND TURN SOFT, MUSHY, STINKY AND USELESS. THEY TOO WILL HAVE TO BE TOSSED SOONER OR LATER AND ONCE AGAIN, YOU ARE TOSSING HARD EARNED CASH INTO THE WATER.

AND UNLESS YOU WANT TO BLOW OUT YOUR BALLYHOO IN NO TIME FLAT, THEY HAVE TO BE TROLLED RELATIVELY SLOWLY. IF THE FISH WANT FAST, OR YOU NEED TO COVER WATER TO CATCH THEM, YOU WILL BE OUT OF LUCK WITH THE REAL BALLYHOO AND WILL PROBABLY WIND UP TOSSING THEM.

CHECK OUT THE REAL BALLYHOO VERSUS THE PROSQUIDS (THAT COME IN GREAT COLORS AND SIZES (HOLLOW SQUIDS), WHILE THE REAL DEAL IS AVAILABLE IN "NATURAL" AND WHATEVER SIZE YOU BUY ONLY.) YOU CAN BUY THREE PROSQUIDS AND AT LEAST A DOZEN 9-12" HOLLOW ONES FOR THE PRICE OF ONE PACK OF BALLYHOO...AND THE PROSQUIDS:

LAST FOR YEARS, NOT HOURS OR DAYS...
YOU DON'T HAVE TO RIG THEM, THEN TOSS MANY OF THEM
YOU DON'T NEED TO FREEZE, THAW, BRINE, RIG, AND KEEP THEM IN A COOLER
YOU CAN STOW THEM IN A FREEZER BAG OR DRAWER
YOU CAN CHANGE THE COLOR OF THE CHASEBAIT IN SECONDS
THEY FEATURE FISH-RAISING AND EXCITING PODS OF TEASERS
TRASH FISH DON'T HURT THEM
SUPPLIERS DON'T RUN OUT OF THEM
THEY CAN BE TROLLED AT A WIDE SPEED RANGE, INCLUDING MUCH FASTER ONES THAN BALLYHOO
THEY DON'T COMMITT "BLOWOURICIDE"
AND MORE, BUT NEED I SAY IT AT THIS POINT?

REALITY AND "TECHNIQUE PARALYZED FISHERMEN"

Now that the coldhearted comparisons have been made and have been seen to favor Pro and other hollow squids so greatly, do I expect a huge percentage of those who read this to switch over to the squids from the natural baits that they and everyone else around them have been using for years? Of course I don’t! Most fishermen are paranoid prisoners of that pernicious traditionalism and the “loud, local expert”. And some of the local heroes cow and bend otherwise intelligent people, including young crew who wind up perpetuating tradition and cause them and many other boat owners to ignore and reject “new”, no matter how good it is or how much sense it makes. There is no way in hell that this kind of “TPF”, or “Technique Paralyzed Fisherman” can release his desperate hold on what he has done in the past, no matter what – and in this case, it is impossible for many to overcome their addictive belief that ballyhoo are the best baits for catching billfish.

MAN, THAT SURE COSTS A LOT OF FOLKS A LOT OF MONEY, TIME, SWEAT AND FISH, NO MATTER WHERE THEY FISH OR WHAT FOR.

BELOW ARE SOME WAHOO BARS AND THEIR VICTIMS, THOUGHT OF BY MANY AS BALLYHOO EATERS. INTRODUCTORY PRICE (ABOUT TO CHANGE), SIXTY BUCKS...ABOUT WHAT TWO PACKS OF BALLYHOO COST YOU IF YOU BUY THEM IN CASE PACKS.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by mitchk

Fred,

What you are saying was along my lines of thought. Whatever that's worth...>

Primary target is Albies up here in WA/OR. I have not had a chance to try this out yet but I now have 4 downriggers. What about a multilevel meatball? Hang with me for a sec. Put a meatball on the dowriggers about 100 down with a release clip on the end instead of a hook. The same with spreaders going back. Each rigger would have a meatball down low and a spreader bar clipped on the surface. You can then handle larger bars since the rods are not connected directly to the bars. As an added bonus, Light rods and clean fights are had without the bars being attached to the fight. Anything hooked low tends to be pulled up to the spreaders behind the boat.

If I'm understanding the argument right, the bigger of a raucous the better. My additional argument is you can get bigger with light lines with downriggers. Thoughts?

How about spiders for Albies? I'm thinking the same idea without the spreaders for salmon but lack experience with meatballs with downrigger clip and spiders. If I can find rigs that score well on both them my life will be good.

I've tried the release on the line behind my attractor and have never been successful. Try hooking your bars on the downrigger ball, 3'-5' behind, and your "bait" release clipped to the downrigger cable above it. You'll have to play with spacing and drop down a bit slower to avoid tangles but this set up works good for me on salmon, mackinaw and kokanee and should work for tuna.

[billspen101]

FOLLOW UP:
I had gotten a little creative and made a halflazz-ruckus bar from one of the naked bars I got from you a couple months ago. I rigged it with 3.5" ers, with 3.5" chasers (W/ C-hooks) and I sent this rig to PC,Fl with my son who mostly fishes near shore there. He called last night and said he couldn't keep the thing in the water. He got there late in the day, but in about one hour, on that one rig caught 2 spanish near 5lbs each, 1 king, an 20# amber jack, and too many bonito to count. The bonito (I think) had pretty much shredded nearly all the teasers! He said he never even got his swimmers in the water and wants more 3" bars... I told him THIS welll had run dry (READ: I ain't sharing any more of mine!) and he'd have to buy his own.....

Summation:
1. The tiny baits you suggested worked great!
2. Avoid schools of Bonita, unless your just bait'n up!

I'll let him use my catalog when he gets back and buy ME one o'dem fancy store-bought ruckus bars too!

Thanks Cappy!
Bill