To Grease or Not to Grease?

[RickO]

WOW! The quest for perfection. You would think something as simple as slowing down a fish hell bent on freedom over a frying pan would be easy. NOT!

Well, I have read all of your posts from Hawaii to Germany, from salmon to giant bluefin tuna, from jerky to super smooth and from grease or no grease.

The bottom line is, no matter how much someone listens, researches, reads or peers into the crystal ball, they are always going to follow the method that they feel either makes the most sense or that which makes them more confident in their own ways.

Well, here is one more post that I hope will settle down this flurry of varied self determined opinions weather to grease or not to grease.

Today, May 14th was dedicated to full-on total R&D (grease/no grease) day at Avet. Sarkis, Harry, Dave Rocchi and Ben Frazier spent the day burning a lot of gas, burning a lot of drag washers and tearing down and scrutinize a lot of reels.

They obviously needed to standardize their testing so 100 yard monofilament topshots were designated as the line of choice since they had between 100 and 110 yards for their flight path. That length would cover most topshots with spectra backing and at the same time maintain consistency of the increase in line pressure as the line diameter decreased and the spool rotation increased.

Both single and twin drag reels were tested. Single drag reels were tested at full and twin drag reels were tested at strike (Dave really wasn’t up for what you called “asphalt skiing”). Line size was standardized to 40lb for single disk and 130lb for twin disk. Speed varied from 25 to 30 MPH at 75 yards depending on how close the looke lou’s got. Between the V-10 Dodge truck and the Hummer, speed was not nearly as critical as breaking.

While maintaining a common stance, they used what they thought was the best drag grease available and testing was performed immediately after the line was retrieved back on the reel with a calibrated scale.

Results are as follows:

v Single drag reels (dry drags): After 1st test = 100% of original drag, 2nd test followed immediately = 105% of original drag and immediately followed by 3rd test which also yealded 105% of original drag setting.
Teardown exposed slight yellow/bluish tinting of drag plate, but very little visual wear of carbon fiber drag.

v Single drag reels (greased drags after setting drag with excessive grease wiped off): Prior to load testing, the wet drag maintained same drag pressure as the dry drag on straight short pull. 1st (high speed) tests showed an average of 6 - 8% reduction from original drag setting. 2nd tests resulted in 10 to 13% reduction from original setting and 3rd tests stayed around the same.
Teardown also exposed yellow/bluish tinting of drag plate. Also appeared that as heat built up grease would become thinner and the centrifugal force would send (oil at this point) the grease to the outer diameter of the spool. After the third test, there appeared to be very little grease left on the drag. Possibly absorbed into the drag material but not visible at this point.

v Conclusion at this point: Single drags will be fine with smaller fish that won’t put the reel to the big test by pulling a lot of drag and building up a lot of heat. When the heat starts to build up, it appears as though the drag effectiveness is compromised.

v After the 3rd test, they allowed the reel to cool off for 3 minutes and retested with a short pull test. The drags came back to within approximately 5% of the original setting, and after 10 minutes of cool off, the drags came back to 100% of the original setting.

v Twin drag testing was performed with a Pro EXW50/2 loaded with 130lb mono over spectra. The Spectra was never exposed during any of the tests. All testing (both greased and non-greased) was with a drag setting of 35lbs at strike.

v First and second dry tests resulted in drag increasing to 37lbs. After the second test, those drags were getting very hot and we decided to take it apart cool it down and grease em up, wiping off any excess.

v Results from the 1st test equated to the same as the dry test showing an increase of 2 lbs of drag (37lbs).

v Results from the 2nd test showed a decrease of 3.5 lbs down to 33.5 lbs of drag immediately after the line was retrieved.

v The reel was disassembled and showed just slight discoloration of the plate and once again small amount grease built up on inside of side plate. Also there was very little sign of any grease on washers themselves.

v They figured it was getting late but had time for one more test, so the drag washers went to the sink and were soaked with water and reassembled.
Once again the drags were set at 35lbs (strike) and off went the Hummer. This was somewhat non-conclusive since the drags were still warm, but not hot and the water absorbed into the drag washers pretty quickly. As a result of the wet/no so wet drag, there was only a loss of .5lbs down to 34.5lbs of drag.

v Conclusion at this point: Twin drags with no grease stayed fairly consistent and even increased slightly when initially heated up (or worn in).
With grease applied, the drags also increased up to 37lbs but when really heated up the drags started to loose a little moving down to 33.5lbs.

Your call at this point depending what your fishing for. Granders from Hawaii to Portugal that are going to do everything possible to melt you and your drags while strapped in and strapped down using monster drag settings (35-70) or stand-up on the rail dealing with a little less drag (30 – 45) and YFTs, BFTs etc. that hopefully will settle down and not get too stupid with you.

Avet’s stance at this point: They are going to hold on to their original direction of NO grease due to inconsistencies resulting from varying temperatures, having to reapply grease periodically, grease having a tendency of attracting inherent elements such as salt, carbon dust etc.

One very important factor to take into consideration is that Avet is building high quality reels for people fishing all over the world for every type of application be it extreme or simple day of enjoyment on the water type of fishing. Their thought process is to keep them simple, affordable, and strong while maintaining a high level of quality and customer satisfaction. Consistency and quality control are two of the most challenging facets of any major reel manufacturer. As the age old adage goes, “you can make everyone happy some of the time and you can make some of the people happy all of the time, but you can’t make everyone happy all of the time”. This is one company that I know that will keep trying their best to make everyone happy.

[x-star]

Great read. Thank you very much for listening to our customers concerns and making an effort to determine once and for all what the best way to go about this issue. Here are a few questions/comments I have.

1. Corrosion resistance is a big reason why I have decided to go with greased drags. There are too many reals out there, Avet and others, that corrode if saltwater gets on the drags.

2. With a lever drag reel, I feel that we have the ability to quickly and accurately add a couple pounds of drag after a long run that warms up the drag. So, if the drags get hot after a burst from the fish, it's it just as easy to add back the few pounds of drag that is lost from the drags heating up?

3. I know you said you used what you thought to be the best drag grease out there. Can we get a little more information on that? Mainly, what drag grease did you decide upon?

I think that with the advantage that a lever drag gives us, we can quickly adjust to compensate for any loss of drag pressure experienced by the reel because of the heat and grease. So, to me it comes down to an issue of corrosion resistance. I think that the minimal loss of drag pressure is acceptable to have a reel the is many times more corrosion resistant and possibly smoother.

Speaking of smoothness, did you guys make any kind of observations regarding the smoothness of the drags with or without grease. I think that is a very important factor to include when doing the testing you are talking about.

Thanks for listening...

[Ali]

The biggest point Harry made to me on this issue is the corrosion factor.

The grease just HOLDS the salt on the dragplate instead of letting it be washed out when you stick them in a bucket.

The case of on the Avet reels is designed to be flushed and drained unlike most reels. This also makes it easier for salt to enter. If it can't be flushed out due to grease, you're gonna have problems.

I don't understand the arguement. The guys that design and manufacture this reel have spoken. I'd listen....

Grease drags in Avets = Bad

[x-star]

Originally Posted by Gato Gordo

The biggest point Harry made to me on this issue is the corrosion factor.

The grease just HOLDS the salt on the dragplate instead of letting it be washed out when you stick them in a bucket.

The case of on the Avet reels is designed to be flushed and drained unlike most reels. This also makes it easier for salt to enter. If it can't be flushed out due to grease, you're gonna have problems.

I don't understand the arguement. The guys that design and manufacture this reel have spoken. I'd listen....

Grease drags in Avets = Bad

Good point. However, I would like to have my post be considered to be more like I'm fishing for a response from Avet, and not an argument because they made no mention on the issues I brought up. So, it's not an argument, I just wanted Avet to comment on the questions I brought up regarding corrosion and smoothness of the drags because to me, having the smoothest and most reliable drag with no corrosion is more important to me than loosing a couple of pounds of drag that can be given back to the reel with a push of a lever.

I just think that the post focuses on the amount of drag pressure that is lost or gained based solely on greasing a drag, when the whole point of adding grease to the drags is for corrosion resistance and smoothness, not the amount of drag gained or lost. I don't think you will find many people that will say they greased your drag washers because the dry washers were not giving them enough drag. Almost always, people will say that added drag grease to their drags to prevent corrosion and make the drag smooth and predictable.

I hope that clears up my intentions of my first post.

[MikeyLikesIt]

The guys that design and manufacture this reel have spoken. I'd listen....

Grease drags in Avets = Bad
__________________

it has taken me alot of years to learn that when engineers design something, they do so for particular reasons.

When I was young, I was all over "mod"ing (modifying) anything I had......sheeet, I stuffed a 351 windsor into a subframed PINTO.....so, yeah, moding can be a good thing........however;

I now just listen to engineers. I find that I have way more time to do things and Im not nearly as broke from having to re-buy things that should have lasted to begin with.

............guess Im glad I never broke out the grease!
(to MOD my AVETS).

thats my $.02, but you guys go right ahead and grease them. Harry and Company wont mind a bit.....

[LAChamp]

Question, I've heard about the smaller reels (LX & JX) being designed to stick in a bucket of water to clean out, but does that go for all Avets? I just can't bring myself to putting the whole reel in water for some reason. I guess that's why I take them apart a lot to clean them out.
How long would you leave the reel in the bucket to have them cleaned correctly?

[RickO]

Originally Posted by x-star

Great read. Thank you very much for listening to our customers concerns and making an effort to determine once and for all what the best way to go about this issue. Here are a few questions/comments I have.

1. Corrosion resistance is a big reason why I have decided to go with greased drags. There are too many reals out there, Avet and others, that corrode if saltwater gets on the drags.

2. With a lever drag reel, I feel that we have the ability to quickly and accurately add a couple pounds of drag after a long run that warms up the drag. So, if the drags get hot after a burst from the fish, it's it just as easy to add back the few pounds of drag that is lost from the drags heating up?

3. I know you said you used what you thought to be the best drag grease out there. Can we get a little more information on that? Mainly, what drag grease did you decide upon?

I think that with the advantage that a lever drag gives us, we can quickly adjust to compensate for any loss of drag pressure experienced by the reel because of the heat and grease. So, to me it comes down to an issue of corrosion resistance. I think that the minimal loss of drag pressure is acceptable to have a reel the is many times more corrosion resistant and possibly smoother.

Speaking of smoothness, did you guys make any kind of observations regarding the smoothness of the drags with or without grease. I think that is a very important factor to include when doing the testing you are talking about.

Thanks for listening...

Hi Brian

If you are planning to grease your drag, the only grease to use is Cal Sheets grease. We tested a larged variety of grease and Cal's won hand down!
As we have previously posted, Avet Reels do not need grease drag washers.

Rick Ozaki

[marlyn]

Awesome post!Please do more of them.Its nice to know that avet actually took this to heart enough to put it to test.If i choose to grease my drag will that void my warranty completely?or just the dragplate?Harry took over a half hour talking with me at length about this at fred hall,what a great guy.X-star makes a good point about sacrificing a little drag for SMOOTHNESS and corrosion resistance.

[seriola]

Hi Rick,

you have opend a new tread. So i cange from the lowdown of an 80 to here.

WOW, what an interesting report. It seems that the guys at AVET take our problems for real, and that is important.

Yes these testing are all times interesting, but some points are not clear. A reel on water with fish on it is different than a reel behind a truck. Why?

1) Reel, line and rood are one unit and in combination there are a few hundreds of possibilities how they will work together. Damping coefficient, dynamic absorption and so on…
2) A truck is running with a constant speed, or an increasing speed. A fish will variegate his speed, and important point to understand the START UP problem.
3) Understand I this correct, the truck was on 25 / 30 mph, when the leader get tension?

Now, we know a bit about brake power and variety under grease.

But the general START UP Problem isn’t touched with any sentence. The owners are dissatisfied about this, no one has screamed about missing brake power.

Personally resume: there are two ways to get happy: Greased and non greased.
Those of us who fish every day a Grander will use them dry, because they need every Lb of drag power.
The other ones, like me, should use them greased, because a Grander we fish here in EU nearly never in our life (perhaps on Canaries or Madeira). I prefer smoothness from start up on. Big BF? Yes sometimes, but should that be a problem with 2 pound less brake power, my thumb will help me to solve this problem.

This information is clear, but for those of us, who have to go on greased is still the question of losing guarantee an important point.

I understand, that AVET's construction with an open brake (no chamber) could change a bit the point of view. But to understand this better, please explain me what is your fear about some grains of salt in the grease.
What should happen?
The washer of my 50 is made from corrosion resistant Material. The chance, that salt enter between the carbon and the washer where there fixed on, is much higher. With grease on it, it's ZERO.


Saludos
Jürgen

[Gil Marlin]

Rick, you ought to get rid of those screws and weld the side plates on...


But then we wouldn't have this repair forum to enjoy...

[Afry]

I always engage the drags (preload) when rinsing my reels then back them off to store.

If it's best to rinse the drag washers (non-greased) to remove salt should I rinse the reels with the drags loose to allow fresh water to get in there and remove the salt?

[x-star]

I have re-read this post several times and this is the conclusion I have come to...

It is now perfectly clear that Avets stance is no grease. However, I now believe that the position that Avet has taken is based on the fact that they want their drags to have 100% drag pressure all the time. What this tells me is that the engineers at Avet as so concerned with this issue, that they are blind to the fact that loosing drag is not, and never has been, an issue for people who grease their drags.

People that grease their drags are concerned about corrosion, smoothness, durability, and "start up." It seems to me that Avet completely missed this point when doing this write-up. It is even more apparent in the response from Rick's response to my post. After everything I said in my post, Rick's response is, "the only grease to use is Cal's Grease." What about all the other stuff I talked about? What is your stance on those issues?

So, should I just forget about this post and go about my business? Should I stop trying to get a response from Avet regarding the issues I have questions about and just grease my drags and mind my own business? Maybe. But maybe Avet should listen to their customers real concerns and do their testing on what matters to real world fisherman.

I am sorry that I sound like I might be attacking Avet in this post but I'm not. It's just apparent to me that Avet is not on the right track with their testing. If they listened a little better, they might understand that the concerns people have with grease or no grease has NOTHING to do with the amount of drag the reel has after it warms up a little bit. I love your reels. If you look at my old post, every suggestion I make to people about reels is a suggestion to get some kind of Avet. But, I would really like to see Avet make an effort to address the issues that really matter to fisherman and not sweep them under the rug like Rick has already done to my first post.